The Allplane Podcast #60: Flying Palaces, with Arnaud Martin of Comlux
Within the world of executive aviation, there is an even more exclusive world, that of the large and very large business jets, airliners that have been converted for VIP roles.
A leader in this very unique space, Comlux is a Swiss-based firm that operates across the executive aviation value chain, from trading large executive jets, to operating them on behalf of its customers, to taking care of all necessary work for cabin design and fitting.
It is not an exaggeration to say that some of the most luxurious aircraft currently operating in the world have the Comlux imprimt one way or another.
And our guest today, Arnaud Martin, knows this world inside out. Arnaud is the chief strategist at Comlux and has been instrumental in the roll out of a project that has the potential to disrupt the private jet industry, the new TwoTwenty corporate jet unveiled by Airbus a few months ago.
The TwoTwenty is the executive version of the A220 airliner and thanks to its operational performance is able to deliver the comfort of a very large executive jet, with the economics of a purpose-built business jet.
Even if you may not have (yet!) the 70 million dollars to buy one of these, this is a fascinating example of new category creation. Those fortunate enough to be in a position to hesitate between a purpose built business jet and a large airliner can now get the best of both worlds.
So, we have talked with Arnaud about the world of highest end of executive jets. How much does it cost to fly on one of them? What drives the uber-rich to buy one jet or another or how do they chose their favourite cabin interiors.
Tune in for a chat about an industry that is often surrounded by a veil of secrecy!
Download this episode from:
Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher
Things we talk about in this episode:
Arnaud’s background in executive aviation
What is Comlux and what it does
How Comlux is active across the corporate aviation value chain
How much does it cost to fly on a large executive jet
What things people consider when buying or renting an executive jet
The TwoTwenty project and why it is a big deal in the executive aviation world
Why the TwoTwenty creates a new product category
What next for the TwoTwenty programme
Resources:
My CNN article about “Flying Palaces”, featuring some of Comlux largest jets
A couple of pieces about the Airbus TwoTwenty:
Some pictures of the Airbus TwoTwenty ACJ (including those of a special edition cabin interior designed by contemporary artist Cyril Kongo :
Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armies
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Interview Transcript
(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)
Hello and welcome to the Allplane podcast!
Here with the people that are redefining the future of commercial aviation
And as usual, before I introduce today’s guest, the usual reminder that you can find all the previous episodes of this podcast as well as many other aviation stories on the Allplane website: that’s allplane.tv - allplane.tv
On today’s episode we visit a very very exclusive segment of the aviation industry: executive jets, but not just any executive jets…
We are actually going to talk about the highest end of the private jet market.
Comlux is a company based in Switzerland that specializes in serving this very high end of corporate aviation. I am talking here about aircraft that are really like proper flying palaces, airliners that have been converted for VIP use.
Will be talking with Arnaud Martin, the chief strategy and corporate development officer at Comlux. Actually, before joining Comlux, Arnaud worked already several years in this market, at Airbus Corporate Jets, which is the dvision of Airbus that builds many of these large corporate jets
So he knows this industry inside out.
What’s more, Arnaud has been instrumental in the launch of an entirely new category of executive jet.
I am talking about the TwoTwenty ACJ, which is the executive version of the Airbus A220 airliner. Comlux is the launch customer and will also be fitting the first 16 aircraft of this type.
What’s so special about the TwoTwenty? Well, it basically provides the comfort of a large airliner with the economics of a smaller private jet.
But I think it’s best if we hear about all this directly from Arnaud…
Hello Arnaud, how are you?
I'm very well. Thank you.
Where are you joining us from today?
I'm joining you from Zurich, which is the headquarters of our company, Comlux.
Yeah, indeed, I had the chance to visit your offices some years ago and learn a little bit about your operations. Because I wrote an article for CNN, about flying palaces, how, how the super rich travel the world. It became so popular. I mean, everyone was talking about that article. It was one of the most read articles that year on CNN. So it's a topic that generates a lot of interest. So that's why I wanted to have a conversation with you guys more in depth to better understand how you guys work, because you are the chief strategy and Corporate Development Officer at Comlux, which is a company based in Switzerland, that basically specializes in, let's say, the higher end of the executive jet market, right?
Yeah, that's correct. Yes, exactly.
So first of all, like I do with every guest, I'm going to ask you first to introduce yourself and explain us a little bit about your professional background. And then, I would like to discuss a little bit how this industry works like this higher end of the executive jet industry and also some interesting projects you've been working on lately, like the corporate version of the Airbus A220. You call it the TwoTwenty. Let's start first by you and your professional background and a bit of context.
Okay, thank you. I'm 62 and I'm French as you probably will notice because of my accent. My career has been aviation since I get out of my engineering school and I have been 35 years now in aviation. I spent a lot of time at Airbus, which was a privilege because obviously, Airbus is a great company. I spent 28 years at Airbus, starting in manufacturing engineering then working on the on the cargo aircraft and being one of the architects of the new Beluga aircraft, which is a bit of a special aircraft and then going to Airbus corporate jet aircraft where I was president of the corporate jet program, I then decided to change and go to Comlux, which is a very nice company very diverse. And I've been at Comlux eight years and have been the chief operating officer of the group. I've recently changed to be chief strategy and Corporate Development Officer, which is more overlooking how the group will evolve in the next few years, even with all my background and experience in a nutshell.
Yeah, I think that's something that many of those that listen to this podcast have in common with you, a passion for aviation. Tell me a bit more about Comlux because it's a very unique company in the sense that it provides a whole range of services for this high end of the executive market. You basically operate aircraft, but you also trade aircraft, you provide also the interior fitting for VIP aircraft and a whole range of other related services for people that have to well have to like to fly private…
If I may, first of all, you could be a very good marketing sales guy for Comlux.
Thank you! haha
Comlux is quite a young company, a little bit less than 20 years, 19 years old now. And it's a unique company and group of companies, because this has been built up really to serve the very high end market and we are doing transactions where we buy and resell aircraft, whether they are new aircraft or secondhand aircraft. We also operate the aircraft. The range is going from global 6000 to Boeing triple seven so we are really adding a wide range of aircraft, but mainly in the high end of aircraft for private customers and for charter and we also complete maintenance of aircraft in our Indiana centre. So it makes us a little bit unique because I think we can do everything a VIP customer wants. I mean whether he wants to charter an aircraft we can do it. If he wants to buy an aircraft, we can do it for him. If he wants to modify his aircraft, we can do it. If we want to maintain his aircraft, we can do it and even if you want to resell his aircraft because you don't want to fly anymore, we can do it also. So I think the our our motto is really to try to always satisfy our customer we know these needs for business aviation and in general, these type of customers, they are business aviation lovers and they like to have partner, would like to have partner like us, which gives us a minute range of services with large expertise in all the fields which probably is a bit unique. I'm in business aviation because we are really very diverse people, very diverse especially in our company. We are probably 600 employees, which is a midsize company, but we have 49 different nationalities, we probably have 25 different type of speciality in between engineers, pilots, cabin attendants, everything, everything you want in aviation, we have almost probably and we are located in seven different places in the world from the west to the east. So we are very diverse. And with this diversity, I think we can answer to the customer the best we can the best giving always the best offer.
Yeah, because obviously the market where you are operating is very global. And one thing that caught my eye is that you are really very strong in this higher end of the market, because we've got a few executive aviation operators here on the podcast earlier, but maybe your case is perhaps the only one that is operating in this segment. That is basically airliners. So it's like an airliner, the same aircraft that normal passengers take, but it's been fitted for a VIP mission. So that means that there's only a handful of people in the world that can afford it. Even for the super rich, that's like the very, very top.
Yeah, it goes from VVIP customers to governments, but also now sports teams, which are very popular. And I think it requires a lot of attention. And speciality because all these people, they fly around the world. And we have aircraft which can do up to 19 hours of flight. If we speak about our Boeing triple seven, 70 VIP passengers on board. So they can decide to go anywhere in the world.
And how does this industry work? I mean, if you are a billionaire, let's say or you are a large corporation that wants to have such aircraft, what would be the normal way to go? I mean, they would come to you and say, “find me a plane with these characteristics”. And then you manage the whole process, or people tend to rent an aircraft for specific missions. I guess there's all sorts of situations here.
You're right. At least the people we know and we have worked with already and who are satisfied at one point in time if they have a project, they just came to us and said, Okay, do you have this type of aircraft? Can you help us in purchasing this aircraft and we have a relationship with the major manufacturers in the world, whether it's an Airbus, whether it's Boeing. I'll go stream, so we are capable of going and negotiating with these guys. And then we can offer a turnkey solution to the customer, which is to say, “Okay, we will buy the aircraft for you, we will transform the aircraft, there is any transformation”. And if you want us to operate the aircraft the first years before you have an operation, we can do it. So we are really proposing the whole full service. Obviously, the chapter business is also providing some of the customers and some of our VIP customers are very happy by the service we deliver when chartering one of our aircraft and who then say “okay, why don't you buy me an aircraft?”. And that's what has happened, by the way. I mean, some of these customers can finish by buying a hangar and aircraft, because there I will have the confidence with somebody they know and somebody to trust them up their capability to be at the VIP level. I mean, they just give us the mandate to do the whole transaction? I think Comlux is an innovative company because of its structure, we can propose everything to the customer. And I think that's one of the innovations which makes us unique. And we do that for big aircraft, which are probably more Comlux in terms of either operation, but also acquisition and transformation we do that for these big aircraft. So I think we now have the reputation to be capable of managing this type of very Comlux transaction for customers and I think that that's one of our innovation strengths.
So you would provide everything all the way from the factory, the fittings, as we mentioned, you have your own in house feeding center in the US, in Indiana. I don't know if you also have your own designers as well…
We have our own designers and we use some other designers, if the customer wants, but we have ours. We have four designers working for us permanently, they are based in Indianapolis. We are also a unique experience as an operator. So when we want to propose the fitting of an aircraft cabin for a customer, we are doing that with the experience of our operation and we know exactly what are the constraints of this type of operation so we can give the full experience to the customer.
In some cases, you provide the crew as well. So the pilots are working for Comlux…
Yes. We have operator certificate to operate the aircraft commercially in Europe, in the US market and in Kazakhstan, for the Eastern market. We have crew bases, which are our employees…
And one question, I guess something that many people are asking themselves now. And I don't know if that's information that it's more or less public, but how much does it cost to fly BBJ, a Boeing Business Jet, or an ACJ Airbus corporate jet, let's say, on an hourly basis?
This is quite public and, okay, depends always on the competition and the type of mission you want to do, but the average is between $12,000 and $14,000 per hour. Obviously, if you work with bigger aircraft, like our triple seven, you can double this price easily. But these aircraft are much bigger stuff, with an apartment of 80 square meter and then finished with an apartment of another 80 square meters. So it's obviously not the same price. But this is the range of prices that we are speaking of when renting this type of aircraft.
Yeah, just for reference, for whoever may be listening that is not familiar with the BBJ and ACJs. Those are the executive versions of the very popular airliners. BBJ is basically a Boeing 737 VIP and the ACJ is an Airbus 320-family in the corporate version, as well. So that was basically like having an airliner but all for yourself. And as you mentioned, there are other larger aircraft like the B777s and I think B787s. That is really the niche market of the VIP market, which is, I would say, an all activity level.
Yeah, I governments as well use this. And you recently did something quite interesting. And that's the next question I wanted to ask you: you were the first customer and I don't know how much you got involved as well in its design…but you are basically the launch customer for the TwoTwenty, which is the Airbus A220 (originally the C-Series then acquired by Airbus). Which it's interesting because you kind of position it as a sort of new category in this segment, right? It's sort of a halfway between a large purpose built executive jet like let's say the Gulfstream of Bombardier Global and the BBJs and ACJs that we were mentioning, providing a bit of an interesting mix of performance and cost that can be quite interesting for operators. Can you tell us more about this A220 ACJ?
I can tell you much more about this one because this project has occupied a big part of my life the last five to six years. So it's not a recent project. It's a project we have been working on for a long time at Comlux. We were first discussing it with Bombardier, at the time of the C series, then it stopped. Because obviously, Bombardier sold the C series to Airbus. And then we started discussion without us two and a half years ago, in 2019. We are very proud to work with them, that we can have a partner like this, with operational experience and a cabin experience. We can try to design a product which is unique in the market, the basic product is already a very modern and efficient aircraft.
But we have designed together, with our inputs, a product that we feel effectively is a game changer in the business industry. It is an aircraft which has a range up to 5600 nautical mile, which is 12 and a half to 13 hours, which suits 96 to 97% of all the business jet flying in the world in a year. So obviously you don't have the super range, but you have something which fits probably the vast majority of the people, you have a cabin which is 73 square meters, which is almost the size of an ACJ, just a little bit smaller, seven square meters smaller, but which is two times or two and a half times that of a normal business yet, so you're just really making a huge difference in in the in the combination of of the range and the space. And up to now the offer which was provided to the customer was that either you want to have the range and you can go 7000 nautical miles. Very good. Okay, you never use it. But you can have it or you want to go for the comfort and you go for an ACJ or BBJ. I think what we have achieved together with this product is to have both. And in 98% of the cases, we just realized that the comfort in a cabin is so important when you fly more than 10 hours and especially for VIP customers. VIP customers will prefer a larger cabin, will prefer to have a bed of two meters by two meters, which is what we will fill, which is the biggest bed that you can add in an aircraft, will prefer to have a full height shower, will prefer to have the space to meet with their friends when they are traveling. So that's really what we have achieved. So, it was a long discussion with Airbus we have been issuing back now with Airbus in this venture. So, Airbus is developing the aircraft parts of the improvement of the aircraft to digitise the installation, cabin altitude which is very good, we are developing the cabin and we are supporting the development cost for the cabin. And in exchange of that we are launched back now we are a large customer also this aircraft we have we have launched we have been ordering and actually selling by the way to aircraft and we are ordering some options right. So we are the exclusive partner of designing the cabin of the manufacturing cabin and installing the cabin in our Indianapolis center for the next 16 aircraft which is the first really big batch of this program. And depending on the success we can probably accelerate a little bit but it is the plan today. Obviously Airbus as an aircraft manufacturer is designing an aircraft which has very very good performance improving the performance and range especially of the aircraft to up to 5600 miles. So, without giving price in detail in the range 70 or low $80 million which the equivalent to a Gulfstream business jet and we are doing that because also we have developed a cabin which is what we want to do for the next 16 aircraft, we have worked a lot on industrialization and optimization of the cost. Now, this has also worked on optimization of costs so, that we can propose these packaged products at this super competitive price and it is always so rewarding that the first discussion we have with a customer, which by the way bought one of our aircraft, was when we speak about it and said that an ACJ is not for me because it's too expensive and when we tell him it is not, all together with a cabinet with all options and a just price, he said “okay then I will look at i!”t. So, I think we are at putting and positioning this aircraft in between the two segments as you said I think it would be a game changer because we are very close in terms of price or we are we almost have the same price and the business jet and we have effectively a comfort of the passenger which is pretty unique we are even though we do industrialization we have more than one configuration for this aircraft so we can change a lot of elements in like you can do in in order business jets, you can change beds, put a table on it, you name it…and the colors and everything you want…so that you have the flexibility to really design the aircraft as you like. But we are doing that in an industrial way, so that we keep the costs at the level which allows us to sell this at an optimum price.
So is there like a menu of interior options for you to go and show?
For those who listen to us, if they want to go to the project website there is an application which is available where you can just click and paste and automatically the 3d version appears and you choose the colour, you can really design your aircraft almost in a minute like you do for BMW for example
So those of us listening that have this type of purchase power, go and check it out. If not, you can go and do window shopping in the website!…and what sort of elements do people look for in in this category of aircraft, because that's luxurious even for even for people that might be in a position to consider a private jet, that's already, as you mentioned, a high level…what sort of materials or what sort of elements are considered a must for this type of jets?
The requirements from the customers have evolved a lot in the last five years due to technology, but in the current days, they want an aircraft which is fully connected and it's the case of this aircraft! We have high speed internet. They want an aircraft they can use like their home and it's also the case, because we have developed a system which links every passenger with his telephone with an iPad, and do broadcasts on the big TV screen that you have in the aircraft, but also to just look at the movies or even video chat. So I mean all that is something which is a must now and we have really designed this aircraft to be a connected aircraft. You can download the app and you will use it to do the lighting and everything the window closes with your iPhone so there is no need to have something very specific, so it's a very modern design and the people like that of course. We, at Comlux are very innovative in the noise insulation of all the cabling we do in general but on this one in particular and we will be below 50 db which is which is a very good noise level for any aircraft you can fly you can have your sleep without any problem without any air flow in general. So that's the innovation also. We have a working galley for the crew where they can prepare everything they want and also a selling for the passengers where they can come and chat like they were in a bar, which is something which is a little bit unique in this market and which really makes it convivial and lively for the people.
How many people can fit into it?
Up to 18 people.
Passengers?
19 passengers, up to 19 passengers in a standard configuration. And if you go to the to the website dedicated to the A220 you will see that's number of passengers which is 19, but also sleeping passengers, can add up to 11 to 12 full bed positions and this is really depending on the configuration which compared to a business jet is is just unique and probably almost double of availability position you can have in an aircraft. I don't speak about just laying down comfortably on your chair but really having a full bed position which is two chairs together with a mattress.
And the crew? How many of them are on board?
This aircraft, two pilots and in general you have one or two cabin crew co depending on the type of service you want to do. We have a third pilot if needed for flights which are above 12 hours, even if it's not always needed. And because you have already 200 aircraft which have been developed for the airline and probably in a couple of years there will be 500-600, you can find pilots everywhere, you can find expertise, which is something very important for the customers.
And you told us earlier about the usual cost of operating on an hourly basis, one of their large BBJs and ACJs. What's the operating cost of this one?
While I was speaking about selling costs before this one will probably be 20% lower in selling costs, operating costs will be probably even cheaper than the business jet aircraft, I will not give you precise figures because operating costs are in general very complicated to calculate for an individual, you calculate that with all parameters. Just because the maintenance is much cheaper. The pilot training is much cheaper in general and the fuel consumption is roughly the same. We have a little bit more fuel consumption, but for an aircraft which is much bigger. So in fuel consumption by transporters we are consuming probably 20% less. The engine is probably the best engine you can find in the market with a very low emission with a very limited level of noise. Obviously, fast forward to the sustainability of aviation, which is not an obvious subject because transporting VIP people it's not obvious to be sustainable, but I think flying people in such a modern aircraft, which is lighter, which consumes less, which makes less emissions, which makes less noise is something which is participating into the sustainability of the business of aviation.
Yeah, actually, you touch upon a very important topic…we've been focusing a lot on this podcast in sustainability. And we actually had an episode about executive aviation and sustainability recently. And I wanted to ask you, because you, obviously, must be talking with lots of people that are using this type of, of executive jet services, I don't know how much of a concern is the sustainability aspect, if this is something that is brought up. And is this an important point, when offering or trading this type of services?
Well, I think of course, the customers, it is our role I think as VIP operators, VIP actors, to highlight the importance of sustainability to the customers, and the use of sustainable aviation sure, is something that we start to discuss with our customers, this has a price. Unfortunately, today, it is still not completely…I would not say “operational”, but not completely user friendly, just because of the different locations where you can find SAF, there have been a number of issues. But a lot of the customers are already listening very carefully to that, and I need to remark there, if we give them the assurance that their operation would not be disturbed...I mean, what a lot of the public need to understand is that business aviation is aviation…but it's also business, and why it's business? Because a lot of these people who are using these aircraft are using them in the majority of the cases for business, and in some cases for pleasure, but in the majority of the cases for business, and they use that for business just because they're travelling a lot, they need to be more fresh when they arrive for a three hours meeting in the other side of the planet, and they have another meeting right after or they have a meeting in the aircraft and so on…So, it is a business tool for people which have the money to spend for that but it's a business tool and and I think these people are conscious about the importance of sustainability and ready to embark…On the subject of the TwoTwenty what we're doing is we are proposing more and more materials which are sustainable, materials in the interior, for example, so we try to avoid any plastic material, more natural material…okay, it is not 100% possible but we are pushing for that just to make the aircraft overall more sustainable. And obviously, as a company, we are working on sustainability more in our operation…which is getting reduced electricity and reduced eating or electricity or use of solar panels, for example in the hangars, that's an initiative we are doing at the corporate corporate level and also for our people, just because I think everybody which is working with us is also interested in sustainability, so we are pushing for it.
Right…And what's the status now of this program? You have already delivered the first two aircraft, right? out of 15-14?
16!
16…and the first two went to…?
The first one has been delivered from Airbus to our completion center. It is now, actually as we speak, in completion…in entire refit. So, that's the first aircraft, which will be delivered at the end of this year. The second aircraft will arrive a little bit later this year. And then we will have three aircraft per year, starting next year. In terms of programme sales, we have an agreement, or a cooperation agreement, with Airbus on the first 16 aircraft of this program, already including our two aircraft, 10 aircraft have been sold or have been purchased by a certain number of customers…a leasing company, which is very interesting this is coming from Airbus, which some reason company wants to purchase that to resell or lease or even they said to rent by the hours like fractional ownership and then some other customers…I am not announcing them under their names…but some big names in the US I would say. And some big names in the East. We have won the first customer, which is from Dubai. So we have a variety of people and I will say that the market for this aircraft, because it's a much more modern aircraft, it's probably a new segment, we are touching a lot of industry people are successful industry players…in the 40 to 50 years old, which one something which is more modern, probably more sustainable at some point in time, even though not 100%.
Not in absolute terms, but in relative terms…
In relative terms more sustainable. So I think these types of businessmen are really the target of this aircraft. And so far for the time being, we have launched the aircraft together with Airbus in October 2020, which is a bit more than a year ago, in the time of COVID. So we have not really done a lot of face to face discussion even though we have tried with a lot of customers because, I mean, the last sponsors were not so easy. But despite that, I think we're almost already at 10 commitments out of the 16. And then we hope that the 16 is just the first batch of our cooperation with Airbus. And now this target demo of the market size on the shark is more in the 150 aircraft size. We are starting with 16 which is very good. But I'm sure we will go much further than that together with us, just because we will deliver the best product in the world.
And are you taking the jet to any air shows in the near future where people can see it for real?
Well the people will be able to see this aircraft when it is completed and fitted, which will be after the Dubai Airshow. So most probably we will showcase this aircraft at Dubai, so I can expect or hope or right after the Dubai air show. So it will really depend…I cannot tell you when the aircraft will be finished…it's also the first aircraft of the series. So, there is a lot more involvement and checks and probably refinement…the next aircraft will be much quicker in terms of the cabin fitting, but the first aircraft is sort of a prototype of the series, so we need to pay a lot of attention to it. I will not give you a date today…
Yeah, because you want to make sure everything is perfect.
Yes, indeed, and it will be looked at by the whole of business aviation, because I think this is the first time we have this type of aircraft, which will come as an offer. So a lot of people will look at that…
Yeah, I'm sure it's going to get lots of attention. So, for people that want to learn more about Comlux and about the TwoTwenty, which by the way, I should have said is written “TwoTwenty” as a brand, written in letters...Where should they go? Comlux.com?
Yeah, on Comlux.com we have a specific site for ACJ. Airbus has also a specific site for the ACJ TwoTwenty. Where the is the same type of information, on both sites you can configure your cabin, as you like, if you want to dream about buying an aircraft or if you want to buy an aircraft even better. You can go on both sides and you will have all the information you need, of course, I mean just look at what is the performance of this aircraft and the beauty and the versatility and the comfort of the cabin. The key of this aircraft is the performance and the comfort and the versatility of the cabin, which is completely different than any other offer today.
Excellent. Well, Arnaud, thank you so much for this very detailed explanation about what you guys have been working on. On this very exciting project, the TwoTwenty. I'm definitely going to do some window shopping and go to see which cabin interior I would like to have…if I can I can come across $80 million to get one of those!
You are welcome! We will make your special offer…!
Haha! Okay, great! So yeah, thank you so much. I'm going to put the show notes with all the references we've been talking about. And yeah all the best with this the rollout of the medic site. Thank you
Bye! Thank you