The Allplane Podcast #35 - green airports with Olav Mosvold Larsen of Avinor

If Norway is leading the green aviation revolution, Avinor, its airport operator, is one of the major players shaping and pushing forward the country’s ambitious strategy in the field of sustainable aviation.

In today’s episode, Avinor’s head of Avinor’s carbon reduction programme, Olav Mosvold Larsen, will explain us how airport operators can become more sustainable, both by optimizing available technologies and by proactively supporting the development and implementation of new greener tech.

A key point that soon emerges from this conversation is that there is no silver bullet.

So, every tool in the box will be needed if Norway is to meet its self-imposed ambitious targets of electrifying domestic air travel by 2030 and making the whole aviation industry completely fossil free by 2050.

Picture Larsen_Avinor 2_portrait (1).jpg

And it is not all roses along the way, in this frank conversation we review the successes, but also the issues that Avinor has faced along the way - including a past incident with an electric test plane or the difficulties to convert an Arctic airport from coal to green energy. But none of these issues have deterred Avinor from pursuing its green aviation goals, which includes becoming fossil-fuel free, that is as far as the airport’s own operations are concerned, free as early as 2030! For reference, this is two decades ahead of the deadline set by Airports Council International (ACI).

Listen to today’s epsiode of the podcast to find out what the leading airport operator in the field of sustainability is doing and what are the plans for the years ahead!


Download this episode from:

Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher


Things we talk about in this episode:

  • Avinor’s sustainability commitment

  • How can airports lower their carbon footprint

  • Avinor’s key role in the Norwegian sustainable aviation strategy

  • Why the northermost commercial airport in the world (Svalbard), is still running on coal and how Avinor plans to transition it to clean energy


Resources

Avinor’s website

White paper with Norway’s 2050 sustainable strategy

Summary of Norway’s sustainable aviation strategy

Several other podcasts that come up during the conversation:

The podcast with Pipistrel founder Ivo Boscarol, which I mention

The podcast with Universal Hydrogen, co-founder Jason Chua

Podcast about the Pipistrel Velis record-setting flight

Podcast with Open Airlines, the French startup whose software helps pilots optimize flight paths

Airbus ZEROe hydrogen initiative that Olav mentions

The incident in which an electric aircraft crash landed in a lake

Svalbard-Longyear airport

Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armies
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/


Interview Transcript

(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)

Hi there,

Welcome to one more episode of the Allplane podcast

Where aviation innovators and entrepreneurs share the coolest projects they are working on.

And remember  you can find all the previous episodes of the podcast as well as many other aviation stories on our website: allplane.tv - allplane.tv

And, for today’s episode, let’s get some warm clothing, because we are heading north!

To the beautiful country of Norway, which has self-mandated what is perhaps - right now - the most ambitious de-carbonization goals for its aviation industry.

And no one better to talk about this country-level strategy and how the Norwegian aviation industry plans to implement it, than one of its main players.

Olav Mosvold Larsen heads the carbon reduction programme at Avinor, Norway’s airport operator, a government-owned company that operates the country’s 44 airports. 

Avinor has been very proactively pursuing this green aviation agenda in Norway, not just by implementing green policies at its airports, but also by engaging other players in the Norwegian aviation ecosystem and supporting initiatives to test new technologies. A button for a sample: the company’s CEO test-flies personally the latest models of electric aircraft and Oslo airport’s newest terminal has received several awards because of its environmentally-friendly design.

But no one better to explain all of this in full detail than Olav himself…


Hello Olav, how are you?

I'm pretty good. How are you?

Very good. So you are joining us from snowy Oslo?

Yes, that's correct. And thank you so much indeed for, for having me for this podcast.

That's great. I have been long waiting to have this conversation. Because basically what you do at Avinor, it's a reference in the world of aviation sustainability. Let me introduce it to the audience. You are the manager of Avinor’s carbon reduction program, and Avinor is the company that manages pretty much all the airports in Norway, over 40 airports in total, you also are a very active player in the Norwegian carbon reduction strategy for aviation, which is one of the most ambitious in the world.

Yeah, I think that's fair to say. That is one of the most ambitious in terms of timeline and ambitions. Yes. And also the inclusion of such a big part of the knowledge innovations. The industry has sort of signed up to this strategy that's really stimulating.

So can you tell us a bit more about yourself, your role at Avinor and why Avinor is such an active player in this space?

Yeah. So I've been working with Avinor for almost 14 years now. Working on carbon issues the whole time giving advice to our top management. I'm currently coordinating all the sort of carbon reduction activities in our company. So with some great colleagues, we're working on reducing our own emissions, but we're also working on reducing the emissions from air traffic, and also surface access to the airports. My background is from the University of Oslo, actually, I was a researcher at the University of Oslo for a couple of years before I joined Evernote, and I have never looked back.

Yeah, I can tell when we're having the chat before this call that you been really breathing, literally, all this sustainability stuff for a long time, because you've been pretty much in the thick of it for a number of years and playing a role there in this very ambitious agenda...at Avinor you published a report like two or three months ago that outlines the strategy for Norway to the year 2050. And it's a very comprehensive document, but at the same time, it's very readable. There are quite a few interesting points there. What can you tell us about this whole Norwegian country strategy to become a leading place when it comes to carbon reduction in aviation? 

Well, this is the fourth report in the series. So we wrote the first report in 2007. And published this in February I think 2008. And then there were sequels in 2011 and 2017. And now we have this new report that came out in English just before Christmas in 2020. And it's been a joint sort of work group working on this on this report has been representatives from the three domestic airlines in Norway, Scandinavian Airlines, Norwegian Air shuttle, and Wideroe, the regional airline, together with the Confederation of aviation industries, and also the main labor union. So the whole sort of story behind this report, which is termed aviation in Norway, sustainability and social benefits in English translation is that we wanted to showcase that we are totally dependent on aviation in in Norway, Norway is for many practical purposes on an island, we have a long stretch border to Sweden, but if you want to sort of, or if you want to or have to travel abroad, you will basically have to travel by air.

Is it possible actually to travel all the length of Norway by land? Or the way is cut at some places?

Oh, yes. it's possible. You can even do it without taking a ferry. Maybe for the last stretch very North at the North Cape...there's a tunnel there now. So you can actually drive, you can bicycle if you want to. But then there are all the topographies of mountains and fjords. So it's not that the rail network is that much developed. So people are basically quite dependent on air travel for domestic purposes. So in fact, half of all the emissions from the Norwegian aviation industry is from domestic travel, more or less.

And domestic service, actually, is one of the, let's say, most ambitious targets...we will have the chance to cover it more deeply later. But you have this ambitious goal of making electric or making it fossil free 

Yeah, at Avinor, a couple of years ago, we stated that we thought that by 2040 all domestic air travel in Norway could be electrified, not necessarily 100% battery-electric, but electrified in terms of using electric motors, but it could be hybrid electric solutions or even fuel cell solutions powering those electric motors. So yes, that's, that's our vision for the domestic market. But going back to the report, this is the fourth report in the series, and we've been trying to showcase why we are so dependent on aviation in Norway. What are the facts about emissions from the aviation industry. What's the numbers. And then what can we do to mitigate the emissions? And then we've made sort of projections or trying to show what happens if traffic growth is x and y, or sets and emission reductions are like this or that, then we'll end up in a couple of decades from now with the emissions in this magnitude. So what is new about the fourth report is that we have agreed, the whole aviation industry in Norway, the parties I mentioned, that our goal as a common group is that aviation in Norway should be fossil free by 2050. And by that it means all traffic or air traffic in Norway and traffic departing, Norway, should be Fossil Free by the means of sustainable aviation fuels, electrification, or hydrogen propulsion.

Yeah, I read the report, and I got this idea that there is no silver bullet. It's a combination of measures. So you are looking at, let's say, in a holistic way, you have set up some goals for the use of sustainable biofuels. And you also are pushing an electric electrification agenda. But you're also looking at other technologies, hydrogen, of course, but also things like optimization of operations, obviously, the airlines that are involved in this work group also are considering things like making fleets more efficient, etc. 

Yep. 

So from the point of view of Avinor, what are you doing today to be on path to fulfill these goals? Because I read that you are already implementing a number of measures. Actually, I think you've been already offsetting emissions for a number of years, but then you, for the coming years, you are planning and other other measures as well. So like electrifying the ground fleet, for example, you open a new terminal that has all the, let's say all the best practices, in terms of sustainability. What can you tell us about Avinor specifically?

I think from the group's point of view, reducing carbon emissions has been a priority for more than a decade now. We, I think we started offsetting the emissions from our own operation. So that's from Avinor’s operations in 2007. So we are a so called carbon neutral, the whole company, and we have taken a lot of measures to reduce our own emissions over the years. Yes, definitely electrifying ground fleets of ground vehicles around vehicles. We're doing a lot of measures in the terminals and all the buildings that are 44. airports, we are currently phasing in a huge amounts of sustainable biodiesel in the snow removal equipment. In fact, I think also the airport last year, about 2020 was a little bit odd in terms of emissions, more than 90% of the diesel that was used was sustainable. Those sources sustainable biodiesel, haven't. Yeah... 

that was 2020…

Yeah, 2020...So and in terms of the terminals, we're using, trying to use natural materials, to the extent possible, in terms of always have to sort of balance it with economic and, and functional functional needs. But to try to have a focus on so-called embedded carbon, trying to use building materials that do not have a lot of emissions when they are produced. And also the airport, the terminal extension, certified as BREEM-excellent when it opened some four or five years back, and we've had the same sort of measures at other terminal projects throughout the country. So yes, we are definitely trying to reduce the emissions from our own operations and also sort of talk more about the ground vehicles we have, because electric vehicles are really bestsellers in Norway, I think approximately half of all new cars sold or are fully electric and we've been trying to also sort of push that development by creating, establishing a lot of charging points at our at our airports. So I believe we have more than 1300 charging points now at our airports and I believe that would make us the the airport operator in the world with the most charging points. Yeah, sorry, premises... 

Yeah, if we can stop you here one second is because I was just looking at the numbers. And it looks like in 2020, so the year that just ended, electric vehicles accounted for over half. Yeah. So the majority of the majority of new cars sold in Norway are already electric, as of now

Fully electric. Yeah

That possibly gives Norway a leadership spot when it comes to electric cars.

Yeah, I think when it comes to phasing in electric cars and starting to use them Yes, definitely. But we're not. We're not producing any. Any of them, of course. So it's, it's all imports. Yes. 

Yes. 

Using electric cars is really catching on here. Yeah. Due to lots of incentives from the government.

Yes. Well, you obviously have all these hydro-electricity as well. So I guess it makes sense to go electric, although Norway is still a big exporter of oil. I don't know...Is that out of scope now of this conversation? 

Yeah. 

That's the paradox. Right. I mean, you're an oil exporting country, but at the same time, you are a leader in decarbonisation.

Yes, indeed, that's sort of the paradox. Definitely, we are some, some people call us the petro-holics. So our economy is fairly dependent on the petroleum industry. We're exporting...we are one of the bigger oil export oil and gas exporting countries in the world. At the same time, we have huge amounts of sustainable electricity as well. So almost 100% of our electricity production is hydro power. We're also exporting clean...In the north in the year with normal precipitation, we are exporting clean electricity to the Nordics and to the rest of Europe. Oh, we're sort of, yes, we are both: we are both polluting the world with our oil and gas exports, and also trying to clean it up by doing things, electricity and other and other measures. So yes, definitely a paradox and the dilemma!

Yeah, well, I have to say I had the chance to visit an hydroelectric plant in central Norway A few years ago, in relation to a professional project I was doing at the time, I was very impressed by the amazing electric generation infrastructure that is there in the fjords, in those mountains, they are all perforated with tunnels and dams and hydroelectric plants. Really, really impressive,

Yes, indeed!

So back to aviation. You mentioned biofuels. And I got the impression that the regional strategy places a strong action on biofuels to, at least, bridge this gap until, let's say the electric and hydrogen technologies are available more broadly for aviation...you have set up a goal of having 30% of fuel consumption coming from biofuels by 2030. Is this 30% for all flights coming in and out of Norway? Or is it only for domestic flights? And where is this biofuel going to come from? I know there are a number of Norwegian companies that are experimenting with biofuels, sustainable jet fuel technology, because of course, the thing with biofuel, you also need to make sure that it comes from sustainable sources in order to, to claim that is sustainable. What can you tell us about this biofuel strategy?

Well, if you let me, I'll travel a little bit back in time because Sure, to the point of departure for this podcast, because in the first report I mentioned we wrote in which we published in 2008. We wrote maybe half a page on sustainable aviation fuels. And in those days, there wasn't any talk about flight shaming and that kind of stuff, because that's a rather new phrase. But greenwashing was very high on the agenda. So we didn't really dare to write too much about sustainable aviation fuels. But then only a couple of years later in 2009, sustainable aviation fuels were certified for use in civil aviation for the first time...and we sort of started to see light at the end of the tunnel. So we've been sort of developing, monitoring this development, for 13-14 years now. And we've had a couple of sort of research projects together with Norwegian research institutions and consultants with publishing reports and trying to put it on the agenda in Norway. And in 2014, the first biofuel flights were carried out in Norway. And those were not the fuel first flights at all. But we were maybe looking  in hindsight, maybe too sensitive about the greenwashing debate. But anyhow, in 2014, we decided to carry out a couple of flights together with SAS and Norwegian Air shuttle, and one of the Norwegian green groups environmental NGO called the zero settle. And that sort of case picked up and I believe it was in late 2014 the CEO of what was called Statoil aviation that was later bought, acquired by Air BP came to us and said, “Hey, we're considering a project together with Lufthansa group. Would you like to make our airport the forever first airport in the world where biofuels are available for all airlines refueling there?” And it took my CEO maybe two seconds to say “yes, we would like to be part of this project!” And then things got a little bit delayed due to several sort of bureaucratic and technical issues. But then eventually, in January 2016, Oslo airport actually became the first international airport in the world, where aviation biofuels were available for all airlines on a commercial basis. And we also also have the first airport in the world where biofuels were dropped into the main fuel farm and distributed in the hydrant and dispenser system. And sort of that project went on for three years. We also expanded it to Bergen. And during the course of this, from the Avinor side, we sort of hinted that by 2030, due to the sort of information we have gathered in the reports, I mentioned that 30% of all fuel uplifted in Norway could actually be biofuels. So that was sort of a little bit of discussion, and that's in the media, etc. 

There is now already I think, since 2020, a requirement for lines in Norway to carry...still a relatively small percentage, I think 0.5% at the moment…

Yes, correct

...of biofuel blended in the jet fuel they can consume.

Yep, that's correct. There has been a, what we call a drop in mandate, also has other terms and names. But basically, it's required by law to drop in or to blend in a certain amount of sustainable fuels into the fossil fuels every year. And that's been going on for the road transport for I don't remember how many years now, but steadily increasing. And then the government decided to expand that also to the aviation industry. So that was, that was the government, that was of Parliament decision. That from, starting in 2020, actually, half a percent of all jet fuel uplifted in Norway should be the so called advanced aviation biofuels. And now also other countries are considering the same and I think it will be implemented in Sweden from this summer, perhaps, 2021. And I know there's also discussion about the EU-wide mandate, and also similar mandates in other European countries. And the parliaments are written Parliament's goal is that by 2030 30% of all fuel uplifted in Norway should be sustainable aviation fuels based on this sort of mandate. So yes, that's indeed, sort of both the government is taking their measures, but also both SAS and Norwegian Air shuttle have quite ambitious, quite a few goals, on their own, even without the mandate, so this is sort of, both, voluntary... there's both a voluntary push and a legislative pull for this to happen.

Yeah, regarding these two airlines, I'm going to post it in the show notes, but they Yeah, they have made public commitments. For example, SAS has committed to reduce, I think, emissions by 25%...to have the emissions at 25% less than they were in 2005, by 2025. 

Yeah, that’s right...and that's total CO2 emissions, not only emissions per passenger, the total CO2 emissions…

Yeah. And Norwegian also recently published its own goals. One question I have here about the biofuels, what is the bottleneck that is preventing biofuels from becoming more widely used? On one hand, if I understand correctly it’s the cost, because they are more expensive than conventional fuel. But there's also a sort of supply bottleneck, isn't it?

Well, there are several issues, again, when prices are high costs are high for production, and then demand is fairly low, which means that production is also fairly low, which means that you can't reduce the costs for production costs. So it's sort of a circular thing there. But then, that said, biofuels, biomass, is a lot more costly process than producing fossil fuels. And I can illustrate that actually, because when I mentioned the flights in 2014, and apologies if I get the numbers totally wrong, but I think in the fall of 2014, the oil price per barrel of oil was more than $100. And then it was this dramatic drop in the oil price. So by 2016, when Oslo airport became the first airport in the world, etc, etc, the oil price was down to $20, or $30 per barrel. So extreme drop in the cost of fossil fuels as well. And that made it difficult for these new sustainable aviation fuels to compete with the oil price. And I think that's something that both politicians and NGOs and everybody sort of have to keep in mind, that aviation is an extremely competitive, global business. So let's say a few airlines in a small region have a lot of higher operating costs than their competitors, they will sooner or later be out of business. So this is all sort of making it difficult to regulate the aviation industry because it's so global, by its nature, compared with I think any other industry

Yes, you mentioned it in the report, actually, there's a line that says explicitly that fuel, I'm not even talking about biofuel here, but fuel in general, it's more expensive in Norway, so many airlines, they would feel the tank somewhere outside of Norway, and then make sure they have enough fuel to make the trip back and forth. So that means that they overall consume more fuel because they are flying heavier. And that's...Yeah, that's something that happens!

I think that there's a risk of increased so called tankering? Yeah. Which is, which is a real issue, actually.

You mentioned also advanced biofuels, what defines whether biofuel is advanced? If it because it comes the whole production cycle. It's also sustainable? Is the difference between advanced and non advanced biofuel?

I think the main difference is that advanced biofuels...and there are slight different definitions of this...that the biomass used in the fuel production should be based on waste or residues.

Okay, so that they don’t crowd out other crops or forestry

Exactly, exactly. So no food no further and have all this I look problematic. But then there's obviously a lot of discussions on what is waste and what is residues couldn't be applied for something else. But there, we just have to sort of trust the authorities in their definitions. And we as an airline industry, we cannot make those decisions by ourselves. So we're using their guidelines, their certifications that are sort of official from the governments.

And besides the, besides the biofuel, there's also the whole world of electric aviation. And I think here Avinor has also had a very active role to the point that I've, you know, as an airport operator, invested in electric aircraft of its own, basically to test several ideas and concepts around the development of electric aviation. What can you tell us about this?

Yeah, that's actually a very interesting story. Because I remember in 2010, working in this business, I was sort of reading all the newsletters and what came up and whatnot. And then we saw This little acrobatic aircraft Cri-Cri, flying fully electric in France. And I looked at the picture and I sort of thought to myself, Well, okay, that was really amazing. But let's wait and watch what happens here. Because if it didn't look like it would sort of have relevance for commercial traffic anytime soon. And then was sort of a breathtaking moment, at least for for me that in, I think was summer, July and perhaps 2015, the same guys and some other French people together with Airbus. And I don't remember the exact Consortium, but they developed a fully electric aircraft that flew across the English Channel, and then it sort of occurred to us because that flight was 72 kilometres. And that's actually a lot longer than some of the domestic routes flown in Norway today. I think the shortest flight in Norway is 32 kilometres or so. And we have a number of flights shorter than 70 kilometres. So then it occurred to us that okay, this could be a thing of the future. We knew a little bit about battery development. We had have had hybrid cars in Norway for a long time, obviously. And sort of, we started looking into this and, and some sort of friends and colleagues in the Norwegian Air Sports Federation. That's the guys organizing all the general aviation and the parachuters and all that kind of stuff. They came to us and said, well, should we do a project on electrification of aviation together? And again, we said, “Yes””. So in 2016, DDR, and came together with the team from Airbus, came to a big carbon conference downtown Oslo, with their little electric aircraft, and we had a very nice chat with them at the conference, obviously, we were there a couple of days, together, displaying the aircraft talking about aviation and carbon emissions. And in 2017, I believe, it was February or March, our board of directors and the top management, they went to visit Airbus in Toulouse and got a very nice brief from Glen Llewellyn and some of his colleagues about what they could see in that crystal ball of the future. And then it was, was getting clear and clear for us that many of the flights in Norway could be flown electrically, or at least without liquid fuels from that whole internal discussion, my CEO was really a driving force and our strategy director as well, we sort of came up with a vision that we believe that by 2040, looking at information we have now from the aircraft from the OEMs, we believe that actually all domestic air traffic in Norway could be electrified, that was an observation that really caught on. And I think it was in the headlines, in many corners of the world because it was the first time a state owned company had said that, and we also stated it in a meeting with the environmental minister of Norway in those days. So it's sort of caught on

And one of the main domestic, I don't know if it's the largest, the airline that is covering many of these short haul roads, within Norway, Wideore, sorry if I don’t pronounce it correctly, has also committed to being an early adopter of electric aircraft as soon as they become available at this scale. Definitely something that you guys take very seriously. I'm sorry. I distract you from the story about the aircraft. So how did you end up operating your own electric aircraft?

Yeah, that was actually part of that project with the Norwegian Air Sports Federation. So you know, it's like...we realized that when talking to people about electric aviation, I was like, “Yeah, right. We hear what you're saying, but we don't really believe you”. So we decided to buy an aircraft and the only aircraft we could buy was the Pipistrel Alpha Electro, which made the choice very easy. So we got delivery of that aircraft in May or June 2018, I think, it has been a very nice experience. I must say one thing is sort of learning how this works with the charging and sort of getting to grips a little bit with electrifying aviation because that will have a huge impact on us as an airport operator as well. In the future, we expect aircraft to a bigger extent to need both charging and perhaps also hydrogen supply. So we thought of getting an idea of that. But what the best thing about the aircraft has been, it's actually been extremely efficient communication platform to talk about aviation and carbon emissions in what we believe is a balanced way to admit the problems we have with emitting 900 gigatons of co2 into the atmosphere every year on a global scale, which is equivalent to somewhere between two and two and a half percent of total co2 emissions in the world. But then at the same time, that there are technical solutions, and that there are technologies that could sort of take us out of this rather miserable situation of being so dependent on fossil fuels, that there are technologies out there that can take us forward and that can make aviation part of a zero and low emission future society. We have to get there. Now we have to get to grips with some of the technologies that can actually get us there. We think that's really fascinating.

Yeah. And actually, there's one episode of this electric plane experience. I don't know if you want to comment, but I think there was some mishap right, at some point one of these aircraft had to make an emergency landing in a lake. 

Yeah. 

You said this, some technical issue, but this, despite this experience...I think there was a minister on board or some high ranking government officer….

Yeah. Yeah…

Yeah, but, I mean, just the proof of that, you know, you're not taking this commitment lightly is that despite all of this, you have renewed this commitment by ordering a new aircraft to replace the one that had this issue, and continue that and continue this program?

Yes. Yes. Indeed. That was in the summer of 2019. In early August, it was actually my CEO, that was the pilot on that flight. And he had a guest on board, it was the deputy minister. And the engine stopped. And he couldn't start it again. So had to make an emergency landing. And it was kind of a forested area around the little airport that we used as the base. And the only suitable place he could find was a little lake. So we landed the aircraft on them in the lake. And the photos from that story look very dramatic, because it looks like it sort of had dived into light, but it was actually fairly smooth landing, and they were not even wet. They got a little bit wet on their feet when stepping on shore from the aircraft. And then after that the aircraft tipped, but that also meant that the aircraft would need either a big restoration or we would have to get the full replacement. So we decided to offer a short process to buy new aircraft of more or less the same type. Keep Pipistrel Electro, but this is the model that is also certified by EASA. We're getting delivery of that in May this year, if everything goes according to plan. So we're looking forward to fly that now in summer of 2021. Yeah, that has definitely not stopped us from working along this path of trying to find new zero or very low emission propulsion technologies for aviation.

Yeah, actually, the Pipistrel is an interesting aircraft. A bit of self promotion here. But there's a previous episode of this podcast where I interviewed the founder of Pipistrel and current CEO. 

Yeah

So yeah, I just mentioned it here. So in case someone is interested in checking the story of Pipistrel, there's a whole podcast episode about it. And I did also another episode with these guys in Germany that did a flight from Switzerland to the North Sea, using Pipistrel as well. So yeah, so I want to post this in the show notes so that anyone that is interested in expanding their  information about this particular typical aircraft can find the information...So, all of you told me about the efforts to electrify but what about hydrogen because that's a technology source that has been touted as being one of the most promising for particularly for the, let's say longer, whole type of routes. What are you guys doing for hydrogen?

Well, indeed, hydrogen is really coming up as a solution for zero or very low emission aviation in the future. And, and we are definitely monitoring this development very closely. We have already had some experience actually with hydrogen, because we had a couple of hydrogen cars running there for a number of years. We have 100 and refueling station at Oslo airport, both for for our own vehicles and also for, for the general public for our passengers

For cars?

For cars, yeah, yeah. So hydrogen is very sort of extremely convenient, a very nice energy carrier, it is already used in introducing some types of biofuels to sort of enrich hydrogen like biofuels, it could be a very important part in what is called electro fuels that is coming up, if you will. So, that's also sort of trending for reducing emissions.

Can I stop you here one second? when you mentioned electro fuels, can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, electro fuels is creating hydrocarbons. So that's basically fossil fuel, but using hydrogen from a renewable source of clean green or blue, what we call blue hydrogen. And then adding carbon atoms from some other source it could be biogenic carbon, or it could be a carbon from a factory any type of carbon, basically

A sort of carbon capture that is then kind of recycled

Yeah, it is at least used once more. So, in the big scheme of things one should avoid adding any new fossil carbon into the atmosphere. So there will definitely be a debate ongoing about the sustainability of certain types of electro fuels, but there is a potential there to use clean hydrogen and carbon from a decent source to make it into a liquid fuel that can be used in today's hardware or today's aircraft and today's fuel infrastructure. And it will not have the same limits as sustainable aviation fuels or biofuels in terms of supply of biomass. So that's two applications of hydrogen in the aviation industry. And then it's obviously using hydrogen in an electrolyzing liner in the fuel cell to create electricity for an electric motor, and that would be under what we have defined as electrified aircrafts. But then there's also another option, and that is to combust hydrogen directly in custom jet engines. That has been done already as a Russian aircraft, a Tupolev, I think in the 80s. It's been used in the aerospace industry, and also probably for other civil appliances. So hydrogen is really coming up as a tangible solution, as I said, and I think it's extremely interesting that a company like Airbus, published their strategy called zero E to have hydrogen or zero emission aircraft in the market by 2035. And that could really really revolutionize air travel. And from Avinor’s point of view, we are certainly airport operators, so we will be more or less responsible for infrastructure on the ground. And we have committed that we will not be a bottleneck, rather the opposite, will be a driving force and trying to get both electricity if charging is required, or hydrogen, available at our airports, when this aircraft will be both tested and also used for a more regular commercial basis. So that's definitely our commitment. We monitor both ZeroAvia and Airbus and other activities in this domain very closely.

Any specific tangible plans, though, or at the moment is just a commitment to follow through as soon as it becomes more and more widespread?

What we have done is we have mapped what we call the electricity supply and the use or demand at all our airports and in their vicinity. So we have a decent idea about what the capacity is in the local grids. And we're planning to do something similar for hydrogen, after summer perhaps, to get a decent overview of possible supply chains, look at these different technologies, liquid hydrogen storage, what are the requirements? Could it be? I mean, in the future, it could even be electrolyzers. At the airport, producing hydrogen on site. I don't know if that is science fiction or science or what it is yet, but that we will definitely look into this and we will be ready. If this is required by the airlines in the future,

Indeed, the supply chain for the hydrogen economy is one of the most important aspects, I think. I had the chance to speak with Universal Hydrogen, which is a US startup that was started by a former Airbus CTO and they propose a very interesting, modular system where you can have capsules of hydrogen that are easily transportable and then fitted into aircraft, that need to be modified. It is not super complex to do, you need to invest a little bit. It’s interesting. I hope we get to see more innovation in this space to sort out constraints on the supply side. Very good…

Yeah, we are monitoring that...sustainable aviation fuels, electrification of aviation  and also the developments in the hydrogen domain. Interesting times.

There is one spot in your network that is a bit special, there is this place in the very, very far north, close to the north pole, the airport that is furthest north anywhere in the world that gets regular commercial traffic, I am talking about the archipelago in Svalbard….you have an airport that runs on coal! How is it?

Yeah, the situation in Svalbard is that there are several big coal mines there and it is far from any mainland, the norwegian mainland that is the closest, i don't know how many days by ship...it’s two hours by plane! Longyearbyen, the city, is fully dependent on coal for heating and electricity and there is no quick easy fix to replace coal...That one airport is like 16% of Avinor’s total emissions...and it’s a tiny airport!

Which is crazy because it's a really remote place, maybe a couple of flights a day...

Yeah! it's the lifeline of the community so really important...but we are trying to find solutions: we have installed solar panels, a couple of small windmills and now carrying a project, a feasibility study to create an energy solution, off grid, for solar storage...based on the experience we may have airport operations offgrid from coal energy. But the Norwegian government has decided, they announced it two or three weeks ago, that they are aiming to shut down the coal plant at Svalbard. So, by 2025 or 2027 the Svalbard will also be fossil free. This is the plan, will see how it goes...we are in contact with Norwegian authorities and with the local authorities at Svalbard and the airport will be instrumental in this. It is an amazingly interesting place in many ways…!

Indeed, very high up in my bucket list! This is the place were you can see polar bears, you even need to carry a rifle when you go out…!

True...When we can travel again we need to travel there!

With pleasure, haha!...In any case you have the goal, at Avinor, to be totally fossil free by 2030, obviously we are talking about your own operations, the buildings, ground movements, etc not the planes, but still, right around the corner! what is the current situation?

The goal was set was set by ACI for all airports in Europe to be  net zero carbon by 2050 and you already mentioned the electricity situation in Norway and that we want to be ahead, so our CEO decided we should have an even more ambitious goal and that we should stop using fossil fuels by 2030...one of my colleagues are looking into this…We are looking into new technologies for ground vehicles, training, all the stuff we use at the airport every year...what technologies we can start investing in now, which ones need more research and development...we are building the plan now, step by step. There will be a balance between zero emission technologies, biofuels, materials...but the goal is to be fossil free by 2030, ten years to complete the job and pretty confident we will succeed!

Remarking here that you mean fossil free,  not carbon neutral, because you have already been offsetting for quite some time, so you have ten years to push this, which is quite ambitious, if you consider how many things are there in an airport. Is this goal for all the network or only Oslo?

For all airports, all 44 airports, yeah

You also looking at things like airspace management, because one thing is looking at the terminals, the ground operations, but as a group you are also responsible for air operations management and also looking at it form carbon reduction point of view

yes, correct, we are responsible for Norwegian airspace, there is a daughter company, fully owned by Avinor...Yes, we’ve working on optimizing approaches and departures and total airspace, what we call green landings and departures, now called continuous descent  and arrivals, we are using performance based navigation, satellite tech to shorten the flight...quite interesting stuff, obviously the general public cannot see it, the pilots and airlines can see it and have often comments, sometimes positive, other times more constructive, we hear that as well, but yes, we have had several projects making our airspace more efficient.

That is actually a dimension of operations that because it is not tangible and visible, it tends to be forgotten in the general debate, but there is quite a lot of scope to optimize. I had on the podcast the founder of Open Airlines, a French company that helps airlines do this, optimize the flight path, pilots can fly smarter and burn less fuel, this plays also a very important part, consuming less fossil fuel, interesting to see you, guys, on top of it...So much to unpack here, so many things in parallel, no silver bullet, a whole combination of measures…! For people the want to learn more about the activities you have ongoing, what resources do you recommend, your website, other channels...?

Yeah, the report we have been talking about, you can link to that...

Yeah, definitely

...and then I must say in the coming weeks we will make a full refurbishment of our English site, which is not up to speed, by early February 2021, we aim to have more info on our English website. Right now the Norwegian version is a bit better, avinor.no. So basically it is extremely difficult to foresee aviation in the future, even in the middle o the pandemic, we need to reduce emissions, work together to lower emissions been many years in aviation and thankful to work in this, so many kind people, trying to push the agenda, lower emission, i think we are totally dependent on finding a solution

Yes, indeed, so much going on, so much tech in early stages, but so much going on, in this podcast we try to showcase them so people can be on top and it and is good to have examples of organizations that are ahead of the curve, so that others can follow later on...Well, Olav, it's been great having this conversation, I will be posting all the links on the show notes...

Yes, i feel like we can talk for hours, it's been nice talking with you…! Who knows we may be able to go to Svalbard soon!

Definitely!

Great! thank you

Thanks!

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