The Allplane Podcast #26 - green flight pioneer André Borschberg, from the Solar Impulse to H55
When, in July 2016 André Borschberg landed in Hawaii, the Solar Impulse had been in the air for nearly 118 hours, or almost 5 days of nonstop flying, the longest uninterrupted flight in a fixed winged aircraft in history. A record that André still holds at the time I am writing these lines.
The Solar Impulse 2, the experimental aircraft André was flying on that occasion, could remain up in the air for such long stretches of time thanks to solar power, the only source of energy that it used.
Picture: H55. All rights reserved.
The Solar Impulse was certainly one of a kind, but André Borschberg, a former management consultant and Swiss Air Force pilot, has now turned its attention - and its expertise in alternative propulsion technologies! - to the field of electric aviation.
His latest venture is H55, a Swiss startup that is building an electrically-powered aircraft that, he expects, will soon be flown at flight schools over the world, training the new generations of pilots that will steer aviation into a decarbonized future.
On today’s episode of the podcast, André Borschman talks about this career pushing the limits of aircraft technology and green flying. We talk, of course, about the Solar Impulse experience, but, perhaps most importantly, about H55, electric planes and the future of aviation.
André shares with other aviation entrepreneurs we have interviewed here, an optimistic, can-do attitude to green flying. Milestones remain modest so far, a light training aircraft, but these are the first steps in the era of progress and disruption that the aviation industry may already be entering.
In this regard, André stands out, not just because of the work being done at H55 and the high visibility Solar Impulse, but also because of his willingness to share his insights about electric aviation publicly and through very informative youtube video postings as well as regular Q&A sessions.
So, if you are interested in electric flight, green aviation or, more generally, in the shape of things to come…make yourself comfortable, because this week we have had the chance to talk with one of the most remarkable pioneers of carbon-less aviation!
Download this episode from:
Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher
Things we talk about in this episode:
André Borschberg’s career as an aviation pioneer and entrepreneur
The Solar Impulse Project
What is H55 and what is it trying to do?
How does learning to fly on an electric plane differs from doing so on a conventional one
The future of electric aviation
Resources:
André Borschberg Wikipedia page
H55 youtube channel, where André explains electric aviation and the H55 project (highly recommended!)
The Solar Impulse 2 record-breaking flight in 2016
BRM Aero, the Czech firm that makes the airframe H55 uses
You may also like this other podcast I did with Morell Westermann and Malik Aziz, that completed another record-setting electric flight earlier this year, also starting in Switzerland!
Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armies
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Interview Transcript (coming soon!)
(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)
Hello and welcome to one more episode of the Allplane podcast
The podcast where we explore different aspects of the aviation industry in the company of those that know them inside out.
But before we start, let me make the usual reminder that you can find the preceding 25 episodes in addition to many other articles and stories about commercial aviation, on our website Allplane.tv.
On today’s episode our guest is an aviation pioneer in the literal sense of the word
You may have heard about the Solar Impulse, which was an experimental aircraft that just a few years ago broke several records when circumnavigating the globe while running on solar energy only.
Well, one of the two aviators on that journey was Swiss pilot and entrepreneur André Borschberg, the other was Bertrand Piccard, who is also known for a number of other unusual aviation feats.
Still today, André holds the record of being the person that completed the longest uninterrupted solo flight on a fixed wing aircraft, 118 hours between Japan and Hawaii.
But, as impressive as this is, and although we do talk briefly about the Solar Impulse, André has come on the podcast mainly to talk about a new project of his
This is H55, a startup which is working on electric propulsion, an area that as you know we are paying close attention to.
H55 is currently testing its first prototype, based on a Czech-made airframe, and conducted several flights in the Swiss Alps.
H55 is already on its way to get its first light trainer aircraft certified and expects to deliver the first units before the end of 2022
This first aircraft is going to be aimed primarily at the flight training market, but André is already thinking a few years ahead and about the multiple applications that H55’s electric powertrain will have in the broader aviation industry.
We are talking about a truly transformative technology, so, in order to learn more about it, let me welcome André to the podcast!
Hello, Andre, how are you?
It's a pleasure to be with you today.
I'm very excited to have you here today on the podcast because you had a very important role in a groundbreaking Aviation project that was completed a few years ago. Solar Impulse was an experimental aircraft that flew around the world on solar power only. From that project, you then moved on to developing an electric propulsion project based in Switzerland called H 55. That it's expected to have some very interesting applications. So I would like to speak about these two projects. But first of all, can you tell us a little bit about yourself about your background?
Yes, of course, Yes, with pleasure. I have been an entrepreneur for many, many years, and I studied engineering, I did an MBA from the Sloan School at MIT. So it's always attracted to technology by the potential of innovation. But also, by the way, in fact, to bring this innovation, these new thoughts into reality, real products that will basically have real real applications. And in 2003, when my partner had this idea to fly around the world with a completely new concept, a new type of aircraft, a new type of propulsion, to demonstrate the potential of clean technology, that was the aim at the time, I was immediately extremely enthusiastic because it was exactly what I was, in what I did, and what I really liked to do think in a new way, bring a new solution. And I think more important today is to bring solutions which are useful, useful in the long term. So not only something to make a profit, but really to have an application or product which serves humanity in what best effect could be, you know, then clean aviation solution. So at the beginning, it was not so much to revolutionize aviation. I mean, you know, to bring a new type of aeroplane for everyone. It was to show the potential, but when I flew over the Pacific Ocean for five days, five nights didn't stop. That's the longest flight ever done with any type of airplane.
Yeah, actually, you are currently holding the record, right? for the longest nonstop flight on fixed wing aircraft?
Yeah, that's right. Yes. And, of course, I hope in some ways that it will be beaten by someone soon, because it would mean that we make progress with technology. But that's not the case yet. And I think we could do it because the airplane was able to fly nonstop. I mean, for unlimited time was the first airplane, we had unlimited endurance, because on one side, it was getting its energy from the sun every day. On the other side, it was so efficient, that's this little energy that you can collect from the Sun was sufficient to fly at night. In fact, when I did this flight, five days and five nights, it was so impressive in terms of reliability, ease of use, that I really thought that this technology would have great potential in the aviation world as well. And this is the reason why we decided, when we completed the flight around the world with a few of my colleagues, it's an impulse to continue the development of this technology. And to bring it to everyone I mean, to any application, you have to make it possible because of course people you know, when you talk about innovation, this thing, when can I fly with, you know, a large airliner and cross the oceans completely clean, of course, this will not happen immediately. We will start with a much more modest application, but it will happen soon, will take time, but it will happen. But we need to start today. And that's what we are doing with the company we created. H 55.
The Solar Impulse is such a fascinating project that it possibly would be enough for a whole podcast on its own, maybe some other time because we have a bit of time constraint today, I would like to speak about this H55 project you are leading. So you are creating the propulsion system for light aircraft, that at least the very first version of the first iteration is designed for training pilots. And you are doing this in the canton of Valais, in Switzerland, and you recently completed a test flight quite recently, I think it was last year, right? A year ago, but you keep developing this project. And here, I must say you have a very interesting series of videos on YouTube that I'm gonna post on the show notes where you explain step by step all this journey. Can you tell us a bit more about the H55 Project? and the technology behind it? And where are you now with this project?
So, first of all, we decided to focus on one part of the world of innovation, which is the propulsion system. So that's the motor, the motor controllers, the energy source, so it can be a battery, it can be a hybrid system. So something which produces electricity on board. In the Solar Impulse, a hybrid airplane, the electricity was coming from the Sun, transformed into electricity and then useful for propulsion. So that's our world. The second part of the strategy, which is important, is that we know that for aviation certification is the necessary path. I mean, if you don't think about certification, you will never be able to bring something which can be used in the aircraft. So we see our company as an instrument to bridge the world of innovation because you have to be innovative and come up with new solutions and the traditional world of aviation through the certification process. So we are developing a certified organization, a certified product. And to be able to do this you need to fly. If you want to fly quickly, the best way is to start with an existing airplane, with an existing platform. And the best application we found to start with is flight training, because that's an aircraft which flies more or less an hour, doing circuits all day long to train pilots to make them learn how to take off and land makes a lot of noise. It's of course not clean for the environment. There is a lot of pressure from local people to forbid all these flights or to limit them. So, there is a very strong motivation for this new product. So we said “okay, let's start with this”. In parallel, we developed a hybrid system for large aircraft and our vision is to be able to bring this out electric propulsion, the first step in small commuters. So airplanes which will and do in fact, the transport of people between cities. So it's not yet intercontinental; it will happen much, much later. But these aircraft which seat between 20 and 50, I think we'll see a bit of a change in the way we transport people because we'll be able to use airports very close to the cities since these airplanes will be much quieter, and of course cleaner compared to existing technologies, opening up a new potential, in fact, a new way to transport people. So, step by step, we like to build up experience starting with a simple application like the flight trainer, going to more complex applications for IFR flights, for example, can be a twin engine, on the same propeller towards larger platforms to serve this future commuter aircraft market.
All of this is on the roadmap of H55…?
All this is a roadmap. I see the potential of electric engines. It's clean, of course, it's 95% efficient. So it makes sense, it's very simple, very low maintenance. So it's evident it will come. But more interesting is that you can have one motor, you can have 10 motors, you can have 20 motors, as you don't have maintenance, the maintenance cost is about the same. So it allows you to distribute these motors on the airplane, and come up with a completely different design. So I think the future is not just to replace, that's what we start with. Now, to replace the combustion engine, we want to be in the air quickly. So we take simple paths. But I think the future is with the potential to come up with new designs with this distributed propulsion using electric motors, not only to propel the aircraft, but to control it. So that's what's amazing. I mean, if you have something which is efficient, which is clean, which is quieter, so making much less noise, which allows you to be extremely flexible in the way you control the aircraft, you'll see very interesting solutions come up during the next 10 years. The challenge, of course, is to certify this, because the more innovative you are, the more difficult it is to certify. Well, that's the reason why we also want to be able to bring to these people a certified battery pack. So they can at least have access to certified components to facilitate the certification of their new aircraft, new ideas, new solutions.
On your website, you highlight the certification aspect a lot if I understand correctly, you are now undergoing this process right with your first prototype.
Yeah, that's right. Yes, we have the process. Now ongoing with EASA, you know you have to certify the organization, the design organization itself, then you need to certify the production organization. So you're allowed by EASA basically to produce and come up with products, which then ultimately will be certified. So it's not just to demonstrate the product is safe, but it's to demonstrate that the process is safe as well. And if you make a change, you know, the change is extremely well implemented, has been analyzed and has been demonstrated as being safe. That's you know, what was not well done with the 737 max, I don't like to criticize other people but I think it is a good example of where one has to be careful. By going too fast basically, they did not go through the certification process at the right time, which forced them to ground the aircraft for a year and a half and you see the difficulty they had to bring it back in the air. So that's what we go through now. And in parallel also we certify our first electric propulsion system for flight trainers, there is no certified system yet. So that's what we are aiming for early 2022.
You have developed the powertrain and you are fitting this into an existing airframe that is an aircraft made by a Czech manufacturer…
Yes. And we believe it's a very good aircraft for this type of application. They sell it already made for many, many schools around the world with a combustion engine. So with a slight transformation, because of course, now instead of having a fuel tank, you have battery systems. So the way distribution is different, the aircraft is a little bit heavier. So you have to demonstrate that flight characteristics are also adequate. So they go through the old certification programs, but it's pretty simple. And then compared, of course, to the initial programs, certification programs they went through. So it's our first customer. But of course, we're talking now to other aircraft manufacturers. And I think everyone starts to be extremely interested because the demand for the market is, is more and more pressing, to get this type of clean and quiet solutions. The flight schools themselves I mean, it's interesting to see, you know, young students, young pilots, they want to learn to fly on new types of airplanes. I mean, they don't want to learn on an airplane, which has been designed 50-60 years ago with an engine, which has been designed as well, 50 years ago, which they know will be replaced by these new technologies.
Yeah, actually, that's exactly the next question I had for you: how different is it to learn to fly on an electric plane, compared to a traditional one? I'm not a pilot myself. So I can, I cannot talk from experience that I'm just curious how the experience differs, and whether there are some tweaks that are unique to electric flying, when it comes to learning,
The flight characteristics are very similar. I mean, I don't want to say “the same”, because of course, the behavior is slightly different. But at the end, the controllability is exactly the same. So you can go from one to the next one, you will not see much difference, then in the way you use the propulsion. It's the same way as you know, you fly on a piston engine, when you go and fly with a turbine, you have to know the difference, there are some small differences in the way you use it, the type of problems you may have. So you have to learn this and electric is the same thing. One interesting difference is that when you use a commercial airplane, you have fuel tanks, and as you fly, in fact, the fuel tanks will get empty. So one thing will potentially change is the center of gravity, because you know, the fuel tank is just not exactly, I mean, it's very close, but not exactly on this center of gravity. And of course, the aircraft gets lighter. So the ratio power to weight is improving, the more you fly, the more power you have in relation to the weight. And for electric aircraft, it’s the opposite because you can compensate for it but it is still different because first of all, there is no change in weight, so you get the same takeoff and landing weight, that's interesting. You have no change in the set of gravity, which makes it, of course, much more simple. But as the battery gets depleted, the voltage gets a little bit lower. So potentially, you may lose part of the power. So you may compensate for it. So you have to know this, you have to be aware of it. So these are the very small differences.
But in terms of flying permits, license that pilot will get it will be the same and because the aircraft flies the same, and you also design a specific instrument panel
Yes, because the interface with the electric system is important to know the behavior of the batteries, I mean, we have to follow and that's very different compared to electric cars, we follow each battery cell so we measure the temperature on each cell. And on the trainers we have about 3000 cells. So we have measurements done 3000 times on a battery pack, they have five or six different temperature measurements at different locations, but it doesn't go so far. So this information is available. Of course it's computed so the computer gives you maximum and minimum, so of course it's simplified, but you have access to all these. So, the level of safety is extremely high. And you have to demonstrate to the authorities that even if you have one cell which would burn because the It has a chemical problem, it will not trigger the fire of the ejection adjustment cells. So of course, it will not trigger the fire of the airplane, damage to the airplanes is, of course, a catastrophic situation. So that's something which is difficult. There's something we have been doing. And these are the solutions that we propose to our customers.
And just to wrap it up, because I know you are a bit short of time today. I'm gonna add all this extra information on the show notes so that people can get to, to see pictures and some information about all these things we're talking about, I wanted to ask you about the economics of electric flight. I saw in your website or your videos, I don't remember now, that this has a very low operational cost. Do you have some numbers about how it compares to the conventional fuel powered aircraft?
The cost of ownership is includes the amortization costs, the maintenance cost, the fuel cost, and so on, and so on. That's the cost per hour for someone who is a small user. So for small aeroclub or a small flying school it is the same over the the life of the airplane, for large school, which flies many more hours, this cost will be lower, I mean, in average, something like 20% lower than that with combustion engines. So the solution has to be cheaper. And we cannot ask people to go to clean technologies, but say, “you know, sorry, guys, but you have to pay much more than the existing solution”, they will not do it. So that's important. But something which is extremely interesting to realize is that the big part of the cost of ownership for combustion engine is fuel. It's the same for a transport airplane, it's 25-30-40 50%, it all depends, you know, how old and which type of aircraft and so on, and so on. But it's a very big part. If you have an efficient system, of course, you use much less energy, and the cost of electricity is, today, much lower, which means that the energy cost is extremely small. So instead of spending money on fuel, which goes to oil producing countries, you spend money on technology, to basically make your aircraft cleaner, quieter, and so on.
Very good. So you are privately funded? And what are the next milestones? Is it releasing the aircraft fully certified next year and to be on the market already by 2022? Is that correct?
Surely, for our system, the aircraft will be certified in 2022. And we'll start doing the first deliveries this year as well. So our goal is to see this airplane flying, I mean, our goal is to see them in the first flight schools in 2022 in the second semester of 2022.
And after that, any specific timeframe for product extensions?
Of course, yeah, we have the roadmap, different projects. The the next one is an hybrid solution, which will fly next year and certified later than the first one. It is still going to use fossil energy, because I believe in step by step development so, you know, to go immediately with hydrogen, which is new with electric propulsion, it's too big a step. So we will add the generator in the combustion engine, which will allow it to take off either electric or even on the combustion engine, but that's not the goal. The goal would be to take off electric to have a quiet flight around the airport and to use the combustion engine only at cruise to give the energy to the cruise flight. And if you design it well you can have something which is more efficient than the existing combustion solutions. So that's the goal. The next step afterwards is really to go clean. And I believe that if you want to use fuel cells and hydrogen, you also need a battery pack as well, as your system increases safety because you don't have just a few cell as the primary primary system. So you could shut it down and use the battery only and land if you want to interrupt the flight. So I believe the combination is going to be extremely interesting. And again, in fact going step by step, so not doing everything in the interceptor. So hydrogen is, I would say the third third path, but you can have if you have a hybrid system, you can have two electric motors on the same axis. So you can have a system which is extremely reliable. So we aim to develop IFR solutions also very soon. So that private airplanes leading ultimately to commuters, private airplanes can fly electric around the airports and hybrid during the cruise using a very, very safe system.
Well, that's something we'll be keeping an eye on to see what comes out of Switzerland. Very good. Andre, it's been a real pleasure having you here on the podcast. Thank you so much for making time today for for this interview. Just a reminder that people can find you on H55.ch. So not .com but .CH, which is Swiss internet code. Also on YouTube, where you have many, as I said earlier, you have many interesting videos where you explain step by step all the developments of this very interesting project. I'm going to post links to all of these on the show notes. So, wishing you all the best with the project. And thank you very much. Hopefully we'll be reading some exciting news soon.
We'll keep you posted for sure progress. Thank you for your interest, Miquel. Thank you.
Bye. Have a great day. Bye bye.