The Allplane Podcast #57: FlyCoin, crypto for airlines, with Lenny Moon & Tom Hsieh

Tom Hsieh

It was a matter of time until the crypto boom came knocking the door of the airline industry.

For today’s episode we connect with California where a bunch of entrepreneurs are preparing the launch of a crypto-based airline loyalty programme.

Well, to be more accurate, it is starting as an airline loyalty programme, but the idea is that it ultimately you earn and redeem this new crypto currency with a broad network of partners and trade it in crypto markets too.

Lenny Moon

Tom Hsieh and Lenny Moon are, respectively, the president and CEO of FlyCoin, a new crypto-based loyalty programme based on Ethereum.

They are both also part of the managerial team of a group of airlines that includes Northern Pacific Airways (whose launch we covered not long ago) and Ravn Alaska. Both airlines are the launchpad for this new type of frequent flyer programme.

This was, thus, my chance to ask lots of questions about how crypto works and what are the potential applications for airlines and, perhaps more importantly, what this means for passengers in practice.

So tune in for an interesting conversation about one of the hottest topics in tech and business right now!

Download this episode from:

Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher

Things we talk about in this episode:

  • Tom and Lenny’s background, from the early days of the internet to Wall Street

  • Tom and Lenny’s involvement in a number of airline ventures

  • What is FlyCoin and how does it work

  • How FlyCoin differs from traditional loyalty programmes

  • What the FlyCoin user experience is going to be like

  • What is the plan to grow FlyCoin’s user base

Interview Transcript

(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)

Hello and welcome to the Allplane podcast 

Here with the people that are redefining the future of commercial aviation

As usual, before I introduce today’s guest, let me remind you that you can find all the previous episodes of this podcast as well as many other aviation stories on the Allplane website: that’s allplane.tv - allplane.tv

Today it’s one of those episodes in which we have not one, but two top-calibre guests.

And we are also going to touch upon one of the hottest topics right now in the world, not just in aviation, but in a more general societal way and that is crypto and how it can be used by airlines.

Tom Hsieh and Lenny Moon are, respectively, the president and CEO of a California-based startup called Flycoin, a crypto-based loyalty programme for airlines and other partners

What’s more, both are also in the managerial of a group of airlines that includes Northern Pacific Airways, Ravn Alaska and FLOAT, so the moment Flycoin becomes fully operative this new generation loyalty programme will have a stable of real airlines ready for its deployment.

So far so good, but how does this work in practice? What are the advantages of a crypto-based loyalty programme compared to a traditional one? And how will the average passenger deal with the technicalities of crypto?

We talk about this and more in this episode of the podcast…tune in!

Hello, Lenny Tom, how are you? 

Well, right. 

So we we've got two guests today on the podcast. Let me just briefly introduce you, you are both leading a very interesting project, actually several interesting projects related to aviation. One of them is the Northern Pacific airways project, which I had the chance to attend the launch off recently in California, it's going to be an airline connecting the US and Asia via Alaska. Then you also run an airline in Alaska called Ravn, which was an airline that got relaunched recently, you also are involved in another project in the LA area, which is a commuter airline, with light airplanes that hasn't taken off yet, but it's there in the making. And then another project that I found really interesting that we're going to talk about extensively today, which is called Flycoin, which is basically, as you say, the first blockchain based loyalty program for airlines. Well, not only for airlines, but you're gonna start using it in an airline context. Let's put it this way. But first of all, let me ask you to introduce yourselves and explain who you are and what your background is because you've got a very, very interesting background in aviation and in other areas of the technology industry. So who, what, who wants to start?

I'll kick it off first, and then pass it off to Tom. So for everybody in the podcast, this is Lenny Moon. I'm CEO of flycoin. In terms of my career, before business school, I worked for about six years doing both startups as well as venture capitals. So I helped start a softening clinic company, as part of the original founding team back in 2000. And then also was on the investment side, investing in new early stage companies for a couple of years as a venture capitalist. And then after getting my MBA in New York, I became a mergers and acquisitions and m&a investment banker for several years. So I worked in Wall Street, focused primarily on what they call either large cap publicly traded companies or large private equity backed transactions, where I advise companies across a whole spectrum of types of complex transactions. So after several years as an investment banker, I went back into startups, to the startup world. And I was an executive at several startups. And since then, I've essentially held various executive roles, primarily CFO and CEO roles, helping to grow out startups, as well as doing a couple turnarounds. And then back in August of 2021, I joined as CEO of flycoin. And that might be a good segue for Tom to introduce himself, because he's the one that actually brought me into this enterprise. Yeah, indeed.

So, Tom, it's your turn.

Yeah. Great. Great to be here. Thanks again. So my name is Tom Hsieh. I'm the president of Flycoin. And before starting flycoin had been involved in a couple of airline startups. As you mentioned, way back early in my career, I actually started my career working for JPL, jet propulsion laboratories, for a little while. And then I went to work for what was then an early Internet startup called Earthlink. Earthlink dotnet.

Yeah, I've seen it on LinkedIn that that was the very first wave of internet companies. So a very early start in the internet business.

Exactly. Yeah. And when I joined the company pretty early on the technical team was just 10 engineers and myself and working out of a comfort dentist's office. And so I grew up the company as VP of engineering. So I helped grow that team from that 10 to about 450. Engineers, nationwide, software engineers and systems engineers, and through our company's IPO. So we were one of the early .com or $1.2 billion IPO. And it was a great ride, being with that company for the first 10 years. When I left that company, I went off and started a number of other businesses and also nonprofits. That's been something that's been very important for, for my wife and our involvement in our community and in the nonprofit space. And then a few years ago and back in 2020, had just launched an urban air mobility service to take people to and from work across track over traffic in LA. That's cool. All right. 

That's FLOAT. 

That's right, which stands for “fly over all traffic”. And we had a very, very successful first week after launch, a first week and a half, having started in March of 2020. And then two weeks later, we had to…

COVID…

Yeah, well, yeah.

So you were flying between the different airports in the LA area, right? 

Well, yeah, most people don't realize that there are 44 or 40 general aviation airports in Southern California. That's a lot. That's I think that's even more than the number of train stations in Southern California. And if you ever, you know, ever been to LA, you know, it's ranked in the top six worst traffic places in the world. And so this was a solution that surprised me that no one had done that before. 

Yeah, I actually, when I was in San Bernardino for the launch of Northern Pacific, I had a couple of days off. And I drove around the LA area. And yeah, I realized how long the distances can be, even if you're still in the LA area, but you can spend hours every day. 

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And then during non COVID seasons, the traffic is even much worse than you would have experienced. 

I can imagine. 

Yeah, yeah. 

So now you are leading this project, flycoin. This is very closely linked to the two airlines, you are also managing northern Pacific airways, and Ravn. But this project is a standalone project. Right? So that's correct. The idea is, it becomes a loyalty program. It's going to be Northern Pacific's and Ravn’s loyalty program. But the idea is that it can be adopted by other other airlines, and eventually other partners outside of the airline industry as well outside the travel industry. So what can you tell me about flycoin? What is unique about Flycoin, as a loyalty program is blockchain based, built on ethereum? You know, for people like me that we are, I have to say, I, I follow the news about crypto and all this, but I'm not an expert. I'm kind of a newbie, and trying to make sense of it all, from a technological and from a business point of view, please guide me through the process. I mean, what's unique? And how does it work?

Yeah, so I'll start off, and then Tom, feel free to add in, you know, flycoin, you're right exists not just for Ravn or Northern Pacific, but then we already are securing partnerships with companies across the travel hospitality industry, it's just helpful, obviously, that we do have affiliated companies that are airlines that we could see as our initial customers, in terms of Flycoin and rewards programs. In general, the reason why we exist is the rewards, the travel rewards industry hasn't really progressed over the past, you know, in 20-30-40 years, essentially, it acts as some form of program where you receive a discount or you receive, you know, a free ticket. And it's expanded on over the past so many years with additional partnership, partnerships with the issuers to potentially redeem it for products, or maybe you can transfer it to, you know, other partners, such as other hotel companies, or you can go transfer back and forth between, you know, certain sectors. The problem, though, is with that sort of model, you still have limitations, limitations are, the reward itself, still is something that you don't know, the issuer can decide what the conversion rate is. So they can actually depreciate the value if they want. There's also expiration to these rewards, at any point in time to give you a little bit of a heads up, and sometimes they extend it. But then they can also expire the rewards, which means that there's nothing you can really do. Furthermore, when you do have the ability to transfer it, you actually lose value, when you try to transfer, you know, between different entities. So for example, if you have 20,000 miles with some airline, and you try to transfer to your hotel points, typically you're going to take a discount whenever you do that. And what also makes it more difficult is you sometimes have to reach certain thresholds before you can even do anything. So you continue to have these limitations with rewards programs. And what makes it also more limiting is the issuer will decide where you can redeem it, right? We call it a walled garden, they tell you that you could only redeem it for these functions and so on. But now we're sitting here in 2022, where consumers continue to have more options, right, they continue to have more things at their disposal, and especially at a time where cryptocurrency is becoming more well understood within the broader consumer base. It really is a nice intersection because a cryptocurrency is almost a perfect use case for rewards. So now how has it shifted? Well, if cryptocurrency now becomes a reward you can earn, that gets rid of the limitations that were previously there. So now it's a reward that you own. Because it's on the blockchain. It's something that is easily transferable, because it's something that you own, and you can do whatever you want with it. It also has value outside of the ecosystem of the issuer, because eventually we want our token to be tradable on the exchanges. And so this really now creates value for the consumer where the consumer has full optionality with what they have earned as reward. And we think that that is a paradigm shift in terms of how you think about loyalty, that the customer is not forced back into a particular walled garden where they can spend it. But they now actually are rewarded in a good way where they've earned something that's theirs, that they can hold on to, that potentially may even appreciate in value. And they could really use it for whatever they want. They could trade it for cash on exchanges, or they can redeem it with any of our partners.

I read the white paper you have on your website. And then it says, there's going to be a limited number of coins issued pre launch. But now I'm going to make a question that possibly all the all the advanced crypto users are going to thing is completely completely stupid question. But what prevents you from issuing more later on of this coin? What the warranty is that there's going to be a stable number that it's going to and that's going to have an effect, of course on the value if there was a limited supply.

Yeah, well, the answer to that it's actually written right into the code of the coin itself. So in the code on the you know, that you that's available, the public can read it, it will show that this is a one time event and cryptographically, we were prevented from ever minting any additional coins to this. 

So there's something in the code where you program it to have just a limited amount of units. I don't know if that's the right wording for it. 

Yes. 

But then you issue this amount. And you said that it's not going to be available immediately. You're going to be releasing it progressively over a period of time. How does this work? I mean, what is this coin in the meantime? So you it's been issued, but it hasn't really been released into the market? Again, I might be using words that are not the proper ones. I'm just curious about the mechanism. Like how is this created technically? And how is it stored in the meantime? And how is it released? And who's going to have access to that new supply that is going to be coming into the market at certain points in time? 

Yeah, so technically, the ways these tokens are created. They're minted, and they're minted on a chain. So if you think you know, Blockchain, this one is on this is minted on the Ethereum blockchain. This is an ERC 20 token. So it means the contract. So you actually write a code, it's called the blockchain contract. And that contract is available for others to read and audit and scan and verify what it says. And our contract is very simple. It just says that 100 million of these tokens are minted and can be ever be minted

100 billion tokens. 

That's correct. And then the value of those tokens is what's going to be varying over time, it's going to be depending on the amount of demand and the and the users it has, the value is going to be what's going to be changing based on just like any market, right? 

That is true, although for our airlines and our partners initially we are agreeing to set a minimum redemption value of two cents for each each fly token. And so as you know, the token's name is Flycoin, but the ticker symbol is FLY. And so, our airlines will redeem it for two cents each. And our launch partners will also agree to always set the minimum floor of two cents for these tokens.

So what does this mean that there's going to be a minimum floor? as a user, what are the implications?

So, as a user that means regardless of what the trading value is on exchange, that we are airlines and other launch partners will always redeem fly for at least two cents for fly or the higher up right so if the market value is higher than the redeem at the higher market value.

Okay. And then you are already using Flycoin for Ravn, Alaska. Is that right? Or you're planning to do it shortly…

So Ravn Alaska has already launched the use of their loyalty program that they are calling Flycoin. But what they're handing out right now is not the tokenized Flycoin. It's just a database of points. And then when we're very soon what we'll do is we'll replace all those points with the actual Flycoin token.

Because Flycoin, you say in the website, it's technically, legally, managed by Ravn, right? 

No, it's actually flycoin. Ravn is just one of the customers. But thank you for clarifying that, because that's actually sometimes that's a confusing element people Flycoin Inc is a separate entity. Ravn is just one of our customers. And to answer your prior question, in terms of who holds that token, it's really the flycoin entity. And our customers whether through our partners, or through, you know, Ravn, Northern Pacific, the other travel hospitality partners, as their customers earn it, and it gets distributed, it leaves in a way, our ownership into the ownership of our customers.

Okay. And as a traveler, let's say, I'm just a regular traveler, I fly on Northern Pacific, and I'm entitled to get a number of tokens, I guess, for having flown a sector with the airline. Is it always going to work just like a regular loyalty program where you air miles based on the number of flights that you you make?

I think that's the best way to think about it, that for the most part, the way you earn rewards is not going to change. And the only thing that's different is, instead of earning your points, you're going to earn an equivalent dollar amount of FLY, the actual token. So that's probably the best way to think about it, where nothing has really changed, except instead of earning, let's say, you're flying on a landing on “Moon airlines” and you typically earn 11 points. Now you're going to be just earning FLY.

And what's going to be the, let's say, the user interface of this, if I am just a regular traveler, that I'm not on blockchain, not knowledgeable…how I'm going to manage this, on a personal level? What sort of tokens will I have, and how can I use them, at the practical level? how are people going to interact with this coin? Because one of the main criticisms of blockchain and cryptocurrency is that it's still kind of quote-unquote, very geeky, and like the normal user, it can be hard to understand how to use it and how to manage it.

Well, first, I'm glad that you asked that question, because that's a key point that we want out there is really, you don't have to be crypto savvy. To actually interact with this, you can almost look at it just as a reward, program itself or reward point. And so similar to the way that you currently own your rewards, you would log in to whether it's that partner website, or ideally a Flycoin website, you can see your entire balance. Now where it becomes a little bit more, quote unquote, crypto, is you can start transferring, and if you want to a wallet, to a crypto wallet and from there, ideally, you can trade. But up until that point, you'd be interacting with this in a very similar way that you are currently interacting with your rewards programs.

And we'll have to sign up, is it going to be opt in? or every passenger is going to be allocated a number of tokens? What in terms of registration or the sign up?

Yes. So that's going to depend on each partner. But for example, for Ravn Alaska, customers are already earning, whenever they fly, they earn, I think seven cents worth of Flycoin for every mile they fly. And that's put into their account so they can use that. You know those flies towards future flights, actually. Many of them are already in the hands of about 250,000 users today, almost almost $7 million worth of FLY tokens have been distributed to Ravn Alaska customers. They're using them to fly today. They don't have to know anything about cryptocurrency. They won't ever need to do any of the geeky stuff.

Okay. And then what if, if, let's say you've got a segment of passengers that are really crypto savvy, and they transfer it to their wallets can then transfer that coin to trade flycoin separately on their own with other users? Do they have this ability?

Yeah, they will, they will have. The more crypto savvy at this point can actually transfer to a crypto wallet and do whatever they want with it. Because it is there's, I think a similar sort of kind of scenario would be, for people that are currently earning rewards, they just log into that partners account, let's say United Airlines, they log into United Airlines, they see their status, they see the points, the more savvy people within points will go to like points.com on the backend and try to start transferring or trading or figuring out other ways to innovate arbitrage was points. In a similar way, I would kind of say that that's an example of somebody that's more crypto savvy, would then take the points that are the the fly that token that they earn, and then take it to the next level and do some other things that they can through exchanges or trading it.

And again, maybe a question that might sound weird, stupid, but what happens if…is there a risk that you run out of tokens? You mentioned that the 100 billion figure…let's say you are super successful, and you get millions of travelers flying with your airlines and with your partners? At what point do you run out of tokens? And then what happens? You need to buy them in the secondary market to keep offering them? Or do you need to stop offering them? What happens?

Yeah, so potentially, we could face a situation where we'll have to buy the tokens back from customers to keep offering it to new customers, you can imagine that scenario, but practically, that probably won't happen. Will probably realize with experience that it is more of an asymptotic curve, you know, where as the closer we get to depleting the tokens, the more valuable that token becomes, and so the higher the price. Therefore, the smaller a portion of the token, you know, the smaller fraction of a token you'd have to give out for the same value. And so you end up with a kind of an asymptotic curve where you'd never get to depleting it because as you get closer to running out and get more and more and more valuable.

Okay, yeah. So you imagine a world where if the token is, let's say, right now, worth two cents. And then so many years down the road, it's worth $1, you'll be earning less fly 10 years from now, because the exchanges, the exchange rate is much different.

You will be changing the let's say the amount of units that are given, but the value would be that would remain constant, the amount of value that the passenger gets

 In this simplified example, yes, that's correct. 

What about the tax implications of this? Because I read in some article saying…I'm not sure how in the US are treated, from a tax point of view, coins and crypto coins and, then, frequent flyer miles? I don't know if they have a specific treatment with the IRS. Are they considered money or not? 

Yeah, it's a very good question. So rewards do fall under kind of a different sort of guidance for IRS purposes. And then crypto falls under different guidance for IRS purposes. The rules are still being kind of worked out. So this is something that we're keeping a very close pulse on to understand the tax implications. Because right now, things are still being, I think, a little vague in terms of the tax treatment for this. So to answer your question, it's something that we're very aware of, but it's hard to speak on what the actual tax implications are right now.

One thing I wanted to speak about as well, is that you recently announced a new funding round for Flycoin $33 million funding round. What can you tell me about this? Who are the new investors and what are these 33 million going to be invested in?

Yeah, so it's a very exciting announcement for us to come out with a significant seed raise of a little over $33 million. In terms of our investor base, our investor base includes some high net worth individuals, people that are tech entrepreneurs, as well as others that own significant properties, whether it's in sports teams, or other hotel and wine properties. So that's exciting because that provides some additional partnerships as well. We do have other institutional VCs some actual funds as investors to which provides additional validation. In the belief from an institutional level of what we are building at Flycoin in terms of the proceeds. As you discussed a little bit earlier. Some of it will be used intercompany loan to fund a portion of the Pacific spelled out, but it's also the remaining proceeds will be used to build up a Flycoin team, which includes not only resources, personnel engineers, this sort of companies, a lot of good developers, engineers. So if anybody's listening to this podcast and wants to work for fly, please let us know.

We can put a link to your website career in the career section, so that people can apply 

Yeah,  we will, we'll do that and follow up with you. And they will then be used to build out the technology platform, the solution of working with our partners, as well as a solution for the end customer meaning those that actually earn fly, providing working to build the app and the website and other functionality that's needed in order to, you know, create a cryptocurrency and eventually really a FinTech company. So that's what we're aggressively building out. Now, we've already had several hires on the engineering side, and continuing to hire on the product development, as well. So it's an exciting time for growth. And we're excited to now build what we're doing. The other portion is we're also securing partnerships, additional partnerships beyond Ravn and Northern Pacific.

Yeah, actually, that was my next question: what sort of partnerships are you seeking at this point in time, because that's an important part as well of the expansion from what they read in your website.

That's correct. Building the partnerships is extremely important in building out what we like to say, as the flycoin ecosystem, because we really want to get this distributed as widely as possible, as well as increase the utility of it. Because the more partners you have, the more opportunities there are for people to earn and redeem, that provides additional utility. So though we can't necessarily name the the discussions that we're currently in, it's a company's in the broader travel hospitality space, which would include other airlines, hotel companies, and other ancillary sectors that are related to travel hospitality, whether it's food and beverage, you know, buying companies and so on. So we're in the very final phases of some of these wonderful discussions, which would really be beneficial to those that are earning FLY, because it provides an opportunity for them to have additional utility, you know, other places that they can earn and redeem. Yeah, but the other reason why it's important is it creates additional value for the token itself. 

Where are you physically located in California, or somewhere else?

Yeah, so we are, the physical office is headquartered in the Los Angeles metro area, in an area called Pomona, which is a little bit east. But I would say that, given our ties, we have operational presence in LA and all throughout the US. We do have a big remote employee base. That's important for hiring really, top level developers and engineers.

Okay, so your you are recruiting not just in the LA area, but just remote as well

Absolutely. All over the US.

That's an important point for people that may be considering. And so basically, that you describe the status you are in, what are the next milestones that we can expect? Any major milestones? 

Yeah, I'll just mention a few. Some of the milestones are…we will be over the next few months coming out with announcements in terms of additional partnerships, which should excite our community, because that's, each one is in a way a distribution channel, we will also be we're working toward a path toward treatability on the exchanges, the crypto exchanges as well, which will also be some key milestones, because that provides sort of a market value for the actual token. So those are some of the I think, the more simplified version of what the milestones would be,

Are there going to be possibilities to exchange that with, let's say, rewards from non crypto loyalty programs? Is there going to be an exchange rate between Flycoin and, I don't know, American Airlines miles or whatever, American Express or another travel operator that has a traditional loyalty program.

So you should be part of our strategy to send him topics that we talked about internally! To answer your question, long term, you know, we are thinking through that. Right now. I think in the more immediate term, there would be a couple steps, like you would take fly in exchange for cash, fiat, and then you know, maybe buy points separately, but we are thinking through what it would take to do that more directly.

I guess it's complicated to manage all of this. From a technical point of view, I think pretty much Flycoin is ready or almost to go live? Do you have a timeframe for when it's going to be fully operational, fully active and tradable?

Yeah, so I think that it's going to still be in phases. In the coming weeks, we are going to provide the functionality where it's going to be tokenized, meaning we can actually transfer the token into people's crypto wallets. And so that'll be I would say, the first phase, the trainability is something that is a full process with the various crypto exchanges. So for that, it's been an ongoing back and forth dialogue, as well as processes and protocols that we're going through. So we can't give a specific timing on that. But we're targeting that it will be within the next four to six months, potentially earlier. But that is the current timeline in the roadmap on that.

And what about the Ravn passengers that you said, are already entitled to Flycoin? What are they going to do? How are they getting these tokens? Do they have some escrow accounts where it's deposited in the meantime? How does it work?

Yeah, so right now it's just being tracked  in his internal database, like reward points with the airline. Once we tokenize them…in the terminology of any of the crypto currencies, we will AirDrop them into their accounts and in that way, they will have access to them.

So people that want to learn more about Flycoin, where should they go?

For now you can visit our website flycoin.org. 

Yeah, that's very important, because if you google Flycoin, there's Flycoin.com that is a different company! I think they do ATM Terminals, something like that. So that's a different company than the flycoin we're talking about here, which is Flycoin.org

You're one step ahead of me, thank you for clarifying! Just gonna clarify that as well. So make sure you go to flycoin.org. But also it has links to our social media channels that are more crypto focused, but I think will be very interesting for people to follow and to learn. So check out the website. Feel free to follow our Twitter account, which is meant earlier on for our initial crypto community. But I think it'll provide a lot of people a good sense of the direction that we're moving toward.

Excellent. And before closing today's conversation, I just wanted to ask you about the other airline projects that we mentioned earlier, Northern Pacific Airways. I had the chance to be at the great event you had in San Bernardino presenting the first aircraft and the livery. Is there already, like a timeframe for the launch? Has there been any news on that front?

Yeah, so we were still on track hoping to launch this year. In the meantime, we're busy acquiring and preparing additional aircraft like the one you saw in Sn Bernardino

And Ravn? you relaunched an Alaskan brand, it's not exactly the previous one, because it's just part of the fleet, I think, that you kept, but you are just operating normally, I guess, and connecting different Alaskan destinations with Anchorage?

That's right. Ravn Alaska is doing well. It serves 14 Different communities

14?

Yes, yeah. One four. And it’s a crucial part of the transportation infrastructure for the state. And we're glad to be part of that.

Yeah, actually, the listeners can not see it. But we are talking on Zoom. And behind you have a very nice photo of Ravn hangar with all the planes, well not all the planes, but a significant portion of the fleet there. So it's a magnificent view! And finally FLOAT. Is it coming back?

Well, our hope is to bring FLOAT back when the timing is right. Obviously, it's still not the right time right now, during the pandemic. But Rob McKinney our CEO, he's talking about potentially a 2023 date to bring FLOAT, float shuttle back So we'll see, we'll look and see how, you know, how the economy shifts and how things develop.

That's gonna be an interesting one. I'm not sure if there are any other cases of airlines that are serving just one big metro area. I mean, Southern California, but still,it's mainly LA. I don't know if you get all the way to San Diego or something like that. But, but that's quite an interesting concept…All right…So Well, thank you very much. It's been very interesting to learn about all these different projects that you are managing and Litecoin definitely, it's something that I will be following. Because I think it's at the intersection of two major trends that I'm trying to be on top of. Obviously, I'm monitoring the airline industry, but also getting more and more interested by the day on everything that's going on in the crypto world, obviously, nowadays, it's, you know, it's hot! 

Well, Miquel, thank you for having us. You know, this is fun, and you really provide a nice and calm, relaxing atmosphere to speak. So we look forward to hearing more podcasts from you but also being invited back at some point to speak more about whether it's Northern Pacific, Ravn or Flycoin.

Yeah, that would be a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time today, and all the best with your projects! 

Thank you.

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