The Allplane Podcast #37 - with Lukas Kaestner of Sustainable Aero Lab

Lukas Kaestner sustainable aero lab.jpg

To those of us who have been following the amazing wave of innovation currently sweeping through the aviation industry, the emergence of a startup accelerator focusing on green aviation comes hardly as a surprise.

Lukas Kaestner is a co-founder of the recently launched Sustainable Aero Lab, an initiative to support and accelerate startup projects in the field of sustainable aviation. The Lab follows a cohort-based accelerator model that has worked well in the broader startup world, connecting early stage entrepreneurs in the field of sustainable aviation to experienced mentors, such as senior industry executives and experts (among them aircraft propulsion expert Bjorn Fehrm, a previous guest of this podcast!).

Lukas is also a manager at Hamburg Aviation, an umbrella organization for the aerospace ecosystem in this northern German city, one of Europe’s largest aviation industry clusters, and in this episode is going to share the details about this initiative: how it came into being, who are the people and organizations behind it and how it works.

So, either if you are a green aviation entrepreneur looking to build and scale your project or, more generally, you are interested in innovation, entrepreneurship and sustainability, do not miss today’s episode!

Download this episode from:

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Things we talk about in this episode:

  • What is the Sustainable Aero Lab

  • How the Sustainable Aero Lab came into being

  • What is Hamburg Aviation and how it relates to Sustainable Aero Lab

  • How does Sustainable Aero Lab work

  • Who can apply to the Sustainable Aero Lab

  • Who are the mentors of Sustainable Aero Lab

Interview Transcript

(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)

Hi everyone,

Welcome to one more episode of the Allplane podcast

As usual with innovators and entrepreneurs that are transforming the aviation industry

Let me start with the usual reminder that you can find all the previous episodes of the podcast as well as many other aviation stories on our website: allplane.tv - allplane.tv
Today we are travelling, virtually, to one of Europe’s aerospace hubs, the Hanseatic city of Hamburg

Because this is where a very interesting project has sprung up to support the many entrepreneurs that are currently working to make aviation greener.

Lukas Kaestner is a manager at Hamburg Aviation, the local aerospace industry cluster, and the co-founder of Sustainable Aero Lab


Hello, Lucas, how are you?

Hey, Miquel, it's great to see you...virtually.

Yes. Last time we met, I think it was, must have been like two years ago for the Hamburg aircraft interiors Expo.

That could be right. Yeah,

Yeah. you have a very prominent role there as you are based in the city of Hamburg, correct?

Yeah

And we are going to talk today about a very exciting new project that you have launched, which is called the sustainable aero lab that is basically riding on this amazing wave of innovation that is happening now in the sustainable aviation industry. But first of all, I will ask you, like all of the guests to introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background and your links to the aviation industry.

Yeah. So thanks for having me in the podcast. First of all, I'm Lukas and I have many hats on my head, I guess. So my major one is that I work with Hamburg Aviation, which is the cluster network of the aerospace region for Hamburg. And we're basically the platform where all the players come together, and all the stakeholders that are involved with aviation in the Hamburg region.

So that includes the big OEMs, Airbus stuff to the technical...that includes the suppliers, that includes the academics, and research institutions like DLR, and also the political administrations. So it's a really interesting platform where a lot of very diverse voices come together and try to find one single statement and strategy to move along.

And so far, I think we're we're managing quite well on this. And there, at Hamburg aviation, I am in charge of everything that has to do with, you know, communicating, the external affairs. So as marketing is public relations, it's event management of big trade shows. And in this relationship, I also do the planning and marketing for the Crystal Cabin Awards, which are hosted during the Aircraft Interiors Expo every year, which is now hosted virtually because of the pandemic.

But nevertheless, it's the leading prize internationally for innovation in aircraft interiors, and it's gained quite some traction in the past years, we're really happy with the Crystal Cabin Awards and how they have evolved over time. And then I also also do media relations for one of Hamburg's lighthouse projects, so to speak, which is the Center for Applied Aero Research, which is basically a campus where everything that has to do with innovation in terms of hardware, in Hamburg, comes together. It's a really, really interesting place as well and was opened in 2016, almost 300,000 square feet. It's a great building.

And I hope it gets popular again in the future, because evidently, it's slowing down there, at least. And then my latest project is that I am one of the co-founders of the Sustainable Aero Lab, which was launched in Hamburg a couple of weeks ago and I also think it's a really, really interesting project to try to accelerate the transformation of our industry into a more sustainable future. And we'll see how that goes. But I'm really excited to start this trip.

So I see you don't have much free time…

No, and I also have a family!

Wow! 

So free time is a very precious good in my life, and it keeps melting….!

So, we're gonna try and make good, good use of the slot we have for the podcast call! Haha!

Haha, Yeah! 

So let's start by briefly talking about Hamburg Aviation. So it's an umbrella organization. As you mentioned, gathering all the ecosystem of the aerospace industry in Hamburg. Basically, there are two big aerospace hubs in Europe. One is in Toulouse, in the south of France, and the other is in Hamburg. Airbus has a big, big plant here, a big factory, but there's also this whole ecosystem that I guess gives you a great vantage point on all the latest developments in the industry. 

Yeah, so Hamburg Aviation is also a partner of Sustainable Aero Lab, Yes.

Okay. And Sustainable Aero Lab...Would you define it as an accelerator, a venture capital fund, a little bit of everything...? What would be your definition?

Well, we're not a venture fund yet, at least, this is certainly an option we will discuss in the future. But we're not a traditional accelerator, basically what the Sustainable Aero Lab is, we are an initiative that revolves around the question “How to accelerate the transformation of aviation into becoming a more sustainable industry?” And we do this by a certain via different platforms, you know, with different events, for example, to kind of help set the agenda for this discussion, such as you do with your podcast. But the key element of the Sustainable Aero Lab is that it is a mentoring program for startups.

So we have the feeling that we need more new players and more players from the outside to join the aviation industry, and to tackle this challenge. And the question is, how can we support this and we were inspired by the Creative Destruction Labs, that were originally founded in Canada, in Toronto, they're now also at the University of Oxford, and the HEC, in Paris, they have a very, very broad scale.

So, aviation is probably very tight for this. But the idea is quite similar, you put together a set of mentors who are all experienced personalities, from different industries, and want to use their experience to, to help innovative ideas and startups along the way.

So it's not a program, where the traditional way is set up, come to the stage, have a presentation, “this is our company, if you're interested in learning more than please contact us”, and then leave the stage again. But it's it's more as an arena where a startup comes in the middle of the pitch, basically, and says, “We're this startup and we have these challenges, how can you help us?” and then the mentors will come together with the different opinions from the different backgrounds and we have people from aerospace, we have people from other industries, we have people from the venture capital scene, and we kind of want to make this a mix communities so that it becomes very diverse, and the feedback that you get as a participant...and they basically discuss what your challenges are, and if the challenges that the startup puts out, are really the challenges that they think are the most pressing ones, or if you know, there are other things to put first.

And then they define, you know, what should be the milestones to the specific things this company can do until the next event where everybody comes together again. And so this makes it a lot more transparent how to advance technology, and it speeds things up a lot, since we're not talking about general presentations, we're talking about events that are fixed on certain dates, and you look at the dates in the calendar and say, “Okay, so in two months times, what are the exact things that a company can do to get a couple of feet further in their journey?”

And as mentioned, this works very well in the Canadian ecosystem with the Creative Destruction Labs, and this was kind of our approach...to see if we can take this as an inspiration and, and merge it into the aviation ecosystem.

Because your co-founder, Stefan Uhrenbacher, he is from the world of digital startups, right?

Yeah, exactly. 

You have adopted this, this format, also from other accelerators out there...So if you're a startup, what could be expected? I mean, what would be the process? You need to apply?

Exactly, yeah. And then it's, it's basically a system where the mentors curate the startups which they would like to support. So as a start up, you will basically provide background information on your company, on your financials and also on what you think your most pressing challenges are.

And then the mentors will look at it and decide, you know, if, if this is an eligible pitch to to support in the in the program, and if a startup is admitted to the to the lab, there will be four event sessions, where the startup receive this coaching both in breakout sessions with a one to one or with two mentors discussing with them, and then also in this larger arena where everybody is coming together and has a broader discussion.

And this is taking place four times a year. And then basically, This marks the end of the season. So after this, there will be another season with new startups going through this process. And in between the sessions, the mentors can voice if they would like to invest a couple hours of their time into helping the startups along until the next session. So it's not only restricted to the event, so the mentors will stay in touch with them in between the sessions, and if there is nobody from the mentor side, interested in coaching the startup until the next session, then this startup will automatically leave the season.

So it's a very tight frame, and a lot of forward related activities. So and yeah, on the technology side, we're completely open to where and how a startup or project wants to come from. So where we will look at entire aircraft developments the same way we look at new mechanisms to weld tanks, maybe. So the common denominator is that we say we want people and projects to apply that think they can really have a significant impact on reducing the footprint of aviation.

So roughly every three months, selected startup will have the session with a mentor, exactly the mentor, it's, it's always going to be one mentor per startup, or there could be more than one mentor, caring about one startup,

No, there will always be more than one mentor. But we will have different mentors sessions, where one or two mentors will focus exclusively on that startup. And then then the startup will move to the next virtual room, so to speak, and meet with the next mentors. And this is also part of the idea that you realize that even though you're speaking with people who are very experienced and have a long history in a certain segment, they're all very different people.

So, you might get one positive feedback from mentor A and a negative feedback from mentor B. And this is how you know real life is and then you will have to see what you make out of this as a young company. But at the same time, since we also have a large discussion between all the mentors, you will also see how these different opinions interact with each other. And if there is a way to find a common solution for this project in this season or not.

But this is completely open. So what's important is that the discussion is on the table, that the challenges are being discussed. And this is where we think this is the largest benefit to get that you have just experienced people discussing challenges that are not very trivial. And this is this discussion alone will forward and accelerate the development of sustainable aviation

...And the mentors, are they going to self pick the startups they are advising or you have some sort of assignment committee for this assignment?

So, it's basically both. We will have a committee to assign the mentors for the events. But in between the events, it's up to the mentors to decide which startup they would like to follow up. And also, I think one one thing that's important to say is we will not take any shares in any companies at any time. And so we're not the mentors. So it's completely open to the mentors, if they would like to approach one of the companies and become an investor as well. But we don't make this a part of the program, which is official. So the only thing that the mentors commit to is time spent on the startups, but no money.

What's your business model then as an organization?

Our business model is basically to be a platform where we condense innovation in this certain segment of aviation, where we also want to open at least the large room, or the large discussions to get in the future. And we say this is an attractive offer to aerospace companies who are also other players in the segment who want to be part of these discussions and who also want to have a platform to present themselves in what they do in this segment. And this is kind of our long term goal to finance this lab, but we're very fortunate to have secured the funding for the first two years already through Hamburg state. So Hamburg has been a great partner in accelerating this idea with us together. And they were very eager to get this to life and very, very fast. So we were really fortunate as set up to have such great support by Hamburg. And they will fund the project management for the first two years of the Sustainable Aero Lab. So we're in this great position that we can start off with everything without having to worry about getting the money back in as soon as possible to not close the doors on this already.

The Hanseatic city of Hamburg...

Yeah, the Hanseatic City of Hamburg, promoting this! And, but also, I think it is important to say they're promoting this because they like the idea. So it doesn't have any, any catch for the startups you do not have to relocate to Hamburg to participate, they will not be some kind of other trick to trick you into the city. So it's basically just Hamburg wants to play a part in advancing this discussion, and be visible on a global scale. And this is an element of doing this. And so but this does not mean that a start up has to be located here or sell some shares to the state of Hamburg, and to our governors. And so it's not like this.

And the first edition this year is going to be virtual on zoom. So you're going to have all the sessions, but the idea is in the future to want things to get a bit back to normal I guess, to get these presential sessions, where you will meet face to face with the mentors. 

Exactly, exactly…

And this is also because we see that it works very well in other dimensions, and it's a different atmosphere, if you meet face to face, then you know, just meeting virtually. And we also see that everybody almost that we speak to is enjoying this very much of meeting face to face of exchanging.

And it's not about just the technological discussions, they can be held on zoom as well. But it's you know, it's a small thing that kind of serendipity that comes along with it, like meeting at the coffee table, or, you know, just running into each other in the lobby and saying, “Hey, you know, I've seen you running around here as well. Sorry, I don't know you. Who are you again?” “Oh, that's so interesting”.

And this is something we see in many other projects that we have started so far, and especially with the Crystal Cabin Awards. Who is in the judging panel? It's also a community of very high ranked individuals with a lot of experience in the pax ex industry. And they do all this voluntarily, they spent the day before their biggest calendar event of the year in a windowless room, hearing 24 presentations, and they do it for no money.

They do it all voluntarily, they screen hundreds of applications and they love it. And they love it because they love connecting with their peers, they love discussing innovation with other people, even if there's, if it's people from opponent companies, and and customers. And it's just a great spirit. And that's basically the DNA of the Crystal Cabin Awards. And this is how we also want to design it for the Sustainable Aero Lab, that people just like to exchange with other people on things that interest them. And this works best in person.

So, of course, it's our goal to come back to a scenario in the long term, where it's a benefit to meet in person. And this is also something that of course, we will work and we do not want to have a meeting in Hamburg just because we want to have meetings in Hamburg, but we want everybody to benefit from it. And when things turn back to normal, this will be our goal.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And actually, that's one of the reasons for events like the Aircraft Interiors Expo, where that's exactly the point: you go there and the whole industry all over the world is there. So you meet people from all continents, from all countries, people that you might have interacted with virtually, but then you have the chance to meet them in person...finding a decent accommodation during those days in Hamburg, though, that's another completely different story!...That can be a bit of a challenge, haha!

Yeah! Haha! It's a lot about these personal connections. 

And same with you also have a nice gala where you are giving the awards, which is another huge opportunity for many of these people to get along in one place. 

Absolutely. And it's the same, it's a great example for this because of course, the gala event is about, you know, announcing the winners in the many categories and giving them room to shine, but it's also about connecting. And people just love you know, sitting together at the dinner tables catching up with colleagues and customers having a drink in the lobby. And this is what it's all about, you know, and that's why they come back to it,  even finalists who lose, and do not walk home with a trophy. And I'm loving the event because you know, they had such great conversations, this is what it's all about,

And the startups, do they need to meet the specific stage of development? Are you focusing on a specific size of company stage?

It's a great question...we want to be as broad as possible. So anything goes, I would say, you could be a company that says, “look, I already have a demonstrator flying. And I'm already very advanced”. And you can also have somebody who says, “Well, I do my master's degree in that university. And I have this idea, and it doesn't let me go. What should I do?” And I think the most important aspect is, but this is up to the mentors, of course, it is whether is, is there a way this Sustainable Aero Lab can help this idea or this company, advance to the next step?

And doesn't have to be like a giant step where you say, “Okay, this is, you know, the breakthrough point where, you know, it enters the world's leading stage, but it could be any significant step in the process, where we say, “okay, we did a little piece of helping this idea along”, and as long as this is something where we can mark a spot where we say, “Okay, this is our point with the sustainable area that could help, then the project is already eligible”.

And this is why we also put a focus on making the mentors, a diverse community, because maybe you are a concept which is already technologically extremely advanced, then maybe the point is not getting into the next technological level, but getting mentorship or just a coaching on how to get additional funding from somebody who is from the VC world and has done nothing else in the last 10 years. So this is why we want to make this a broad program to see you know, where our touch points where we can help. You have mentors from different areas of the sustainable aviation world. 

Actually, one of them, he’s been here on the podcast, he was one of the very first guests, we had a great conversation about different types of propulsion systems, about electric and hydrogen, I'm talking about Bjorn Fehrm, the Swedish aerospace engineer, well known because of his blog, “Bjorn’s Corner”, which I recommend.

Yeah! Highly recommended. Yes, if you want to learn about the pros and cons of the different propulsion systems that are being discussed at the moment, that's a great place to go look for information and understand them better. 

You have different experts from different areas, but you have identified, correct me if I'm wrong, eight different focus areas that you will be kind of prioritizing, right? That's hydrogen, electric propulsion, lightweight materials, efficiency improvements, design improvements, operation optimizations and also agilization of the development processes for the aviation industry. That's quite, quite broad, but I see there's a lot of focus on optimization here. I mention this because obviously, hydrogen and electric can be sort of moonshot innovations, completely disruptive, like switching to a new technology paradigm, but there's a lot of optimization that can happen within the existing, let's say, the existing technology framework that we have today.

Absolutely. And, of course, it's good for aerospace if we also have the moonshots, like the Liliums of this world that really pull the train through. But I think as an industry, we want to set ourselves the goal that we want to become, you know, close to zero emission as, as an industry, then we really also have to look at the points where we can optimize technologies that already exist.

And I think aviation is already extremely advanced with great and also complex technologies, and how safe they are these days, you know, aviation is such a safe industry and just seamless in how everything works. It's just amazing. And I think it would be fatal to just say, “Well, this is not cool any longer. Let's switch to the new kid in town, which is hydrogen, and abandon everything else we have learned over the past 100 years”.

I think that wouldn’t be the right way to do it, I think we need to look at everything, we need to look at the moonshots that come up from the sidelines, the same way that we look at existing technologies and ways to optimize them. And one point that you just read out there is making production faster, and everything that has to do with you know, gaining speed in development and also making things fly.

If you look at the timelines for developing new aircraft, they're really, really long. And you know, this is something that big OEMs like Airbus, and Boeing can do, but it's almost impossible for a new player to, to enter this market and pull through, you know, maybe over a decade of trying out things, of setting up a production until the thing really flies in a way that you can put it to the market.

So, it's really a question of how can you make aviation also faster in bringing new players to the market, bringing new technologies and production and certification into place. So because we don't have a lot of time, you know, we're not looking at the zero emission industry in 2150. But we want to make this happen in the next 20 years. And this is speed that we still need to gain. And this is why we also make this a focal point of this assembly.

Would you say that you are tending more towards the let's say, industrial applications, rather than a more consumer, for life traveler side of technology.

Yeah, maybe. So once again, we are very broad, so we encourage anyone to apply, and then we'll still see where we end up. But we think the largest challenges are on the technological side. So we want to put a focus on this area, mostly because we say this is, you know, the most complex issue to solve, and which will probably take the most effort and the longest time and it needs the most discussion, to find a way through, when it's when it comes down to, you know, the whole customer journey, we have the feeling there already are many activities in place.

And the setup is already in a way that we are confident that innovation can come up to the shore and make its way without, you know, a deep discussion taking place before. But so this, this is why we're focusing more on a technological point of view. But you know, maybe we're wrong. So this is a long term project. And we will start out making our own experiences with, you know, the applications we receive, and the experience we get in how mentoring goes and what are really benefits that the mentors can give. And maybe if we talk again, in two years, in two years time, then I'll have a different opinion about this.

So, this is why we say we encourage many companies to just submit and to be part of this discussion, because it is a challenge that we can only tackle together,

You have among your priority area of hydrogen and electric you have also optimization of operations, and you have designated biofuels and sustainable aviation fields as a lesser priority. Is this because of the nature of the investments that are needed or the scale of technologies that need to be deployed to make this another tool in this decarbonisation of aviation?

Yeah, the reason we put this to two lesser priority, so to speak, is because we say we are mostly experts in the aerospace and venture capital fields, and when you open the pitch to or if you open it up to the sustainable aviation fuel segment, you will probably also need people from the oil and gas business, from the chemical business, from other segments to join as mentors as well.

And maybe this is a little too broad. It's funny that you mentioned this because we laid this out and our guidelines and now we already have a couple submissions from the sustainable aviation fuel segment coming in, that we are already very actively discussing again. So maybe we'll end up having one or two startups in the first season or eight from the SAF field. Because you know, what we originally thought was not a realistic way to go, you know, the goal is to accelerate anything that can push aviation further into becoming a zero emission industry.

And if we feel there is a way we can help the SAF guys as well, then we might add them as well. So this is actually a discussion we're having with the mentors right now, as we speak. It's funny,

What is the timeframe that we are looking at now for the first cohort of startups?

We are looking at starting the first quarter already in this first quarter of 2021. So we want to be speedy in this respect with ourselves as well. And we want to finish the first season in autumn of 2021 already, and then start with the next season. So by mid 2022, our goal is to have the first two seasons already taking place, and to continue with the next batch and also with our learnings and adapt the program as we go. So these are our own agenda points. 

And this is the time frame that we're following this one, I'm going to ask you some specific numbers. How many start?...Well, first of all...what is the deadline for startups that are interested in applying for this very first batch? And how many in total are you expecting to take in? maybe you mentioned that number already, but I might have missed it...And how many have you already selected?

Yes. Great questions. So first of all, for the first two years, we do not want to set a deadline to submit, because we want to keep an open door to anyone who thinks they have an interesting idea. And maybe we can help.

But you must have some cohesion in the group. I mean, if you have a specific calendar...

That's true. So the first season will be selected...the participants of the first season will be selected, probably, by the end of February 2021. So within the next weeks, but even beyond that, we want to, you know, stay accessible to people and startups who want to join, and then they may be a part of the second season.

And the other question is, how many applications do we have? So far, we are doing a two way process right now. So first of all, we have submissions that come in from external, you know, through email, through the website. And and then we also have a list of startups that our team is currently curating ourselves, and how we want to assess the market and get an overview for ourselves of companies we'd like to contact from our site and tell them about the program and saying, maybe this is interesting for you now or in the future. So we currently have a long list of I'd say 70 to 80 startups that we're looking at.

And this will boil down to we'll start with a very limited amount of startups. And we cannot actually define right now how many startups will be in the first batch because it depends on the mentors. And of course, we cannot overload the mentors with, say, eight startups to coach so we will see where we end up on the venture stage at the end of February, and then we will be able to decide how many startups we can fit into the process. 

How many mentors are already on board?

We currently have eight mentors on board and we're having active discussions with numerous others so this will also a process where we will keep the door open. And we want to expand the list of mentors over the years. So by the end of year two, we want to have over 20 mentors in the Sustainable Aero Lab, because, of course, we will not have a situation where every mentor will be able to participate in all four events of every year. 

Yeah, makes sense...and startups that want to take part in this, can you please remind us of the website where they can find the application form? And of course, all the other information about the Sustainable Aero Lab?

Yes, of course, I think it's fairly easy. It's just sustainable.aero.

Okay, so hopefully, everybody can take this one down. 

Yeah. And they will, everybody will find all the information needed. So everybody is encouraged to just get in touch, should there be any questions or if any company or project wants to submit.

Excellent! Lukas, before we wrap up...are there any other projects, initiatives, programs that you are working on? Not just a Sustainable Aero Lab, but Hamburg aviation, or other initiatives that you mentioned earlier that you are also involved in that you would like to share?

Yeah. So, Sustainable Aero Lab also keeps me quite busy. But actually, we do have numerous initiatives in Hamburg that are currently in the making or being worked on also as a response to the pandemic.

And you know, to the challenges that come with it. For those of you who are interested, if you go to our website, Hamburg-aviation.com. We do have a, a sub page and a campaign, which we just launched last week, which is called “Hamburg is Boarding” where we showcase some of the projects that are currently taking place in Hamburg. We do have some other cool projects such as MIDI fly, which is a drone delivery in the urban sphere, between labs and clinics, how to avoid traffic congestion, and help people in the surgical field to just speed up getting results for medical records. And this is also a huge field that is something that we Hamburg is working on.

So, there again, we are very diverse. And despite AIX getting postponed again and again, the Crystal Cabin Awards are still running, with a virtual prize giving ceremony on the 30th of March, which will be streamed live, which will be also a very cool event. You can all look forward to that. And we already have the next round of Crystal Cabin Awards in the making. So the submission period for that one has just ended in January. So yeah, that the ball keeps rolling and rolling. The game continues. 

Right! Good. So Hamburg dash aviation.com. 

Yeah. And the other one is sustainable.aero. 

Okay. very descriptive! Excellent! So yeah, I think all listeners can get a pretty good idea of what you guys are up to. And hopefully, you will get some more applications coming soon to keep this pipeline full of new ideas and innovations to make aviation greener, which is, I guess, the goal of everyone here. 

Yeah. 

Thank you so much! It's been great speaking

Thanks for inviting me

...and I hope the next meeting will be already in person, as, hopefully, the vaccinations are getting speeded up and we are able to get back to normal soon. So thank you so much! 

Wonderful. Thanks again!

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