The Allplane Podcast #53 - with Jeff Engler, founder of Wright Electric
Of the many startups that are pursuing the goal of building an electric airliner, Wright Electric stands out. Instead of focusing on light or regional aircraft, Wright’s founder, Jeff Engler, has decided to aim at the core of the industry, the mid-sized aircraft market.
Wright Electric is currently working to retrofit a 100-seat BAe 146 airliner with 2MW electric motors, but if all goes well, the idea is to scale this up and come up with an electric alternative to the A320/B737 models that currently dominate the skies, well…at least for the shorter, under 800mi, segment of this market.
How is Wright Electric going to do so? With which technologies? Which batteries are they evaluating to get to this so-far elusive goal?
We’ve got Jeff on the podcast to tell us all about Wright Electric, his views on the electrification of the mid-size airliner market, the pros and cons of different propulsion systems and their collaboration with airlines such as Easyjet and VivaAerobus, as well as with several research agencies and organizations, including NASA.
Tune in for an overview of one of the most daring electric aircraft programmes out there!
Download this episode from:
Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher
Things we talk about in this episode:
What is Wright Electric and what sort of aircraft it is working on
Why is it hard to make a large electric aircraft
Which propulsion technologies is Wright Electric considering
What is an aluminium fuel cell and how does it work
What is the current status of the Wright Electric project
What market segment is Wright Electric aiming for
How Wright Electric collaborates with several airlines
Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armies
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Interview Transcript:
(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)
Hello, Jeff, how are you?
Hello Miquel. I'm great. How are you?
Very well, where are you joining us from today?
I'm joining from New York, New York City. I just flew in from Europe yesterday for the cop 26 conference.
Oh, nice, great city, by the way, but you're based in New York, right?
Yes. Based in New York.
Great. Yeah. Today we're gonna talk about Wright Electric, because that's a project that really has caught my attention already for quite some time. It's got some features that really stand out in the electric aviation space. But first of all, tell us a bit about yourself. You are the founder of Wright Electric. And you've been leading this project already for a number of years. Tell us a bit more about your background and about Wright Electric and how you guys did start this project?
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm the founder and CEO of Wright Electric. We started the company about five years ago. We're based, as I said, in New York. And our goal is to reduce the climate impact of aerospace. What we know is that 95% of the carbon footprint of aerospace comes from Boeing and Airbus-sized airplanes. And so our focus is on reducing the carbon footprint of that segment, the large airplanes
At this point, I just would like to stop you for a second because we'd like to make a comment here. When you say Boeing and Airbus-sized airplanes, I guess you're thinking about the let's say, the mid size segment, A320. Family, the Boeing 737 family, right?
Yeah, that's correct. That's exactly right. Yep, the 737 and A320 family and it goes from, let's say, 90 or 100 passengers, all the way up to 200 or 220 passengers.
Yeah, I'm highlighting this, because when I said that you your project really stands out in the in this space in the, in the among the, like, let's say the crowd of entrepreneurs that are trying to electrify aviation, is that most of the effort is going into the smaller segments of the market, particularly the up to 19 seats, because there are, obviously, some regulatory matters there. And some technical issues as well, when it comes to electrifying aviation, you have chosen a segment that obviously is very large, but it's also quite challenging from a technological point of view. What else can you tell us about your project? From a technical point of view? What is Wright Electric? What sort of prototypes are you working on? How are you conducting all this effort?
Yep. So what airlines tell us is, if there's going to be a replacement for the 737, or A320 family, this airplane needs to have three qualities. Number one, it has to fly at jet altitudes. Number two, it has to fly at jet speeds. And number three, it has to have 100 or more passengers, not so that this future airplane fits within their existing business model. And at Wright over the last three years we built the world's most powerful aerospace-grade propulsion motor. It's two megawatts, which is nearly 3000 horsepower. It's four times more powerful than anything else that's out there on the market. And it's about three times more power dense. And because we built the world's most powerful motor, we can build the world's most powerful retrofit. And what we announced earlier this month, is that we are converting a 100 passenger regional jet to zero emissions for one hour flights. And one hour flights are some of the busiest routes in the world. For example, Seoul to Jeju in South Korea carries 15 million passengers each year, generally with 737s and A320s. So we know this is a major market opportunity. And it's a great way for us to enter the market.
Yeah, indeed. It's a huge market. And all these planes you mentioned are like the workhorses of the industry. But are you guys designing the whole airplane? So from what I understand, you're been creating these models, are you also taking care of all the rest, so the airframes, integrating these models, the power plant everything?
Yes. So we're taking an existing airplane, which allows us to reduce the regulatory burden. We can do a supplemental type certificate, rather than a type certificate or a traditional new airplane type certificate. And our company builds motors and inverters and a few other components within the system. And then we're working with partners in other areas, like for the power distribution and power management and things like that
This is really like a huge technological undertaking. How did you start with such an ambitious goal? I mean, are you guys a startup? Right? Are you? Are you funded by private capital? I know you also are a part of some government research initiatives that are funded by the government. Right with ARPA-E. I think it's one of them. You've been working with NASA ,Defence...
That's correct. Yeah. So we're funded by numerous government agencies, NASA, the US Department of Energy, the US Army, the US Air Force. And we're funded by private corporations and investors as well. And the way we started was was by you know, when you're small, and you don't have a lot of money, you can't even build a prototype, maybe you just do the computer designs, and then you get more money, and then you can do a prototype, and then you get more money and can you, you know, a prototype testing on an actual airplane. So the engineering approach we've taken is always to start small, start with science, and build from there.
And where are you now? How much of this project is already a tangible reality? And how much is gonna be expected to happen in the next few years, because you recently announced a timeframe for some of this technology to come in line, you're retrofitting this BAe146 100 seater aircraft? And I saw that timeframe, I think you mentioned you're expecting this aircraft called the right spirit to be able to fly already by 2026. So that's in a five year time period. Where are you now? And what are the next steps in this project?
Absolutely. Working backwards from 2026, we intend for the right spirit aircraft, the BAe retrofit, to target entry into service in 2026. This year, and next year, so 2021 and 2022, we're doing testing on the ground. And then in 2023, we'll begin testing on the aircraft in the air. And one of the benefits of the BAe146. Aircraft, is it has four engines. So in the beginning, we'll do one electric motor with three of the existing jet engines. Then in 2024, we'll do two electric motors and two jet engines. In 2025 will do all four electric motors, and then in 2026, we're targeting entrance of service. So it's a step wise, engineering approach to reduce risk.
So what can you tell us about the technology that you're using? Because you've got on your website, you've got an interesting paper, I'm gonna post the link in the show notes. There are the technical details there. But I'm not an expert in the technical aspects of aircraft propulsion. So I was hoping you could explain to us a little bit how all this system works, and what are the challenges. So you are designing these very powerful electric motors, but these electricity can be generated in different ways. And if I understand correctly, it's still not settled, what's going to be the underlying technology that is going to be powering these electric models, it could be either a hydrogen fuel cell, or something that caught my eye, it's an aluminium air technology. Can you tell us a bit more about those options? And what does this technology involve?
Yeah, absolutely. And before I start, you know, there's the underlying technology itself. But then there's the infrastructure of the market, as well. You know, there's the technology that goes in the airplane, but then there's everything that goes around it to make it possible. And so the reason we haven't picked one technology, is that the decision isn't only just about us, it's about what will be available in the airports, what will be available for zero emissions technology in the 2026 timeframe. We know that hydrogen has a large potential to be the future of aerospace, energy storage. The concern though, is the timeframe. Is it going to be, you know, ready in two years, we'll be ready in four years in 10 years? And what about infrastructure on the ground? And so the the the reason we're spending the next 12 months, in what we're calling a joint technical assessment phase, are known as the Jtap “joint technical assessment phase”, which is a pretty common industry term is that we're using the next 12 months to evaluate not only the technology, but also the market readiness and the infrastructure. And you know, as you mentioned, we see two major opportunities that could get us to ultra lightweight energy storage. One is hydrogen. And then the other, as you mentioned, is aluminum-air or aluminum fuel cells. And then if you'd like, I'm happy to share a little bit more about each of those.
Yeah, please do. I think well, I'm personally more familiar with the hydrogen fuel cell because it is the solution that it's being used in, you know, the projects that I got the chance to get acquainted with. But it's really the first time I come across this aluminum fuel cell. But if you could give us a little summary of both that would be great. And then also, I need to add as well, you also contemplate the possibility of having some sort of back up that would be powered by conventional jet fuel, sustainable jet fuel, is this right?
Yeah, that's exactly right. When we talk about making a zero emission split, you know, our ultimate goal is for the entire flight to be completely zero emissions. But one thing that we're exploring right now is, you know, every airplane, let's say it's targeting a one hour flight, let's say 400 nautical miles, then then you also have to have extra energy on board for reserves, you know, in case you have to go to a different airport, or in case there's, you know, bad weather in one airport. So, one of the things that we're looking at is, could we do zero emissions for the flight? And then have the reserves be powered by some sort of sustainable or synthetic jet fuel? Something like that? That's just to answer and address your first question.
But that fuel, is it gonna? Is it going to be powering some sort of generator that's going to power them?
Yeah, exactly. Right, a generator, I'm still working with a company making a very lightweight generator.
So it's gonna still be the electric motors, just that the source, the primary source of energy would be in that case would be fuel during those critical moments, where some backup might be needed…
Yeah, that's exactly right. And then again, this is this a backup, like during reserve, you know, like, let's say, you are on a flight that is scheduled from London to Paris, and then there's bad weather in Paris, you have to fly to an airport near Paris, something like that.
So just a little detour here, back to the to field sell options that you're contemplating, what are the pros and cons? And what's your view on each of them?
Yeah, so just to just for folks who aren't as familiar with aluminum-air, or aluminum fuel cell systems, aluminum as the material is the most common metal on Earth, it's one of the most common materials on Earth. It's very lightweight, it's very abundant, it's very inexpensive, as well. And for our purposes, the main benefit is that it also stores a lot of energy, in a very lightweight and very volumetrically small package. When you mix raw aluminum or sort of base aluminum with oxygen, it essentially gives off electricity. And in an aluminum battery, you harness the electricity from that reaction of oxygen with aluminum. And so in terms of the advantages and disadvantages, let's say if you're comparing a hydrogen fuel cell to an aluminum fuel cell, hydrogen is going to be more lightweight. But then hydrogen is also volumetrically very large, you need very large tanks, even if it's in liquid form. So aluminum is going to be a little bit less lightweight, or maybe a little bit heavier. But volume metrically, it'll be a lot smaller. And then from a cost perspective, aluminum is expected to be a little bit less expensive, and easier to maintain, than hydrogen. So when you look at a new airplane that's sort of designed from scratch, hydrogen looks more and more like a great solution, because you can redesign their plan to deal with all of that large volume. Imagine, for example, like the Airbus airplane, the Airbus Beluga, basically kind of a much more volumetrically large airplane to take those tanks. But for a retrofit airplane, and especially considering entry into the service in 2026. That's really where we're, we're sort of looking at both, and seeing what might be the best entry into market solution.
Two things that come to mind when mentioning aluminum. One of them is that I read those white papers on your website, I did some additional research as well, what I've seen is that because of the features of this technology, you need to replace the battery after a certain number of flight hours or recharge cycles. So you would then need to have some sort of logistics in place where basically the plane would get there and the battery would be replaced. The second question is how you make sure that aluminum that is used in this process is sustainable as well, because it's the process, as you mentioned, it's very abundant on our planet, but the process to obtain aluminum from ores it's quite energy intensive. So if those sources of energy are not clean, then it's kind of a self-defeating situation.
Yeah, that's a great question. So your first question I think is about sort of the underlying operations, you know, what do you do if you're when you need to recycle these airplanes with these, these batteries. And you know, you're absolutely right, these are not batteries that you plug into the wall. Like if you think of a typical, you know, lithium ion battery, these are batteries that have to be mechanically recycled at a plant. And you can either have a plant, you know, at the airport, or you can have a plant, you know, a couple of 100s of kilometers away, and you drive to it. But if you look at both hydrogen and aluminum, many people are looking at the idea of producing this sustainable hydrogen or sustainable aluminum away from the airport, which requires logistics on the ground to deliver tanks or to deliver aluminum in terms of making it zero emissions, at least with aluminum about 60 to 70% of the carbon footprint of aluminum comes from electricity. And we know that we can shift to green electricity, things like wind and nuclear and solar. And then the other 30 to 40% comes from other parts of the process. For example, there's carbon dioxide released when in the process of doing the mechanical recycling, and there's already a number of companies that are working on creating low emissions versions of that technology. In fact, the American company Alcoa is working with Apple, the computer company to build zero emissions aluminum. So it's a very exciting research space. I think there's a lot of opportunities there.
What would be the past to certify such an aircraft? Is it very complicated?
Yeah, that the certification pathway is, is very, it's, it's daunting. It's difficult, it's complicated. And, you know, we feel that that's what's necessary to maintain safety. So the certification process is something we think is necessary. And we're very happy to work with regulators on certification. And we're going to be pursuing what's called an supplemental type certificate or an MCC. So when you have a new airplane, you do a type certificate for a new type of airplane aircraft. And for a retrofitted airplane, you do a supplemental type certificate. And that's what we'll be pursuing here an STC, or a supplemental type certificate.
That would be for the right Wright Spirit, when we mentioned this very first iteration. But you have plans to scale this up, right? So this first plane based on the Bae146, for 100 passengers, that would be the first step, then the next step, I think with a time origin of 2030, according to your website would be the one you call the Wright One. And that would be a larger aircraft already designed to compete directly face to face with A320s and 737s, right?
Yeah, that's correct. Although one thing I would notice is that we're starting to get interest from other airplane companies to use our motors to retrofit their planes. So there might be another interim step, maybe we start with a BAe146. And then there's other companies that we've been speaking to about retrofitting their airplanes as well, because our propulsion system is designed for basically very large airplanes. There's a number of companies that are even speaking about that.
And how would the scaling work? You originally have the Bae146, it's a four engine plane. So I guess you're going to have four two megawatt engines. And then you have plans to scale the size of these electric models, I think up to four megawatts, is that correct?
Yeah, that's correct. So we will need to scale up, scale up the size of the motor somewhat, but you know, not by a factor of three or four, by a factor of, you know, 25%, 50%, maybe, maybe 100% larger, but you know, for different applications. And we need to both scale up the motors and we need to scale up the energy storage, so that our airplanes can fly basically larger numbers of passengers, longer distances.
What do you think is a realistic goal in terms of range and capacity payload? You mentioned originally, there's this goal of being able to fly this 100 passengers for one hour, is that the end goal? I guess, are you planning to reach longer distances right and with larger payloads.
One of the things that we know is that the 737 and A320 is that 50% of their flights are shorter than 800 miles. And so that's really our target. Our target is the 737, A320 market for flights shorter than 800 miles. And we're looking at both retrofitted airplanes, maybe to enter the market. And then eventually our own clean sheet airplanes, that we'll work on with partners for the, you know, for larger airplanes going even longer distances. But that's really our market 737 through A320 and flights going shorter than 800 miles, which represents 50% of the flights.
Yeah, I'm actually here, it's what I kind of put myself in the position of the airline and seeing how this impacts the fleet planning and thinking about the fleet composition for the future. And how much is the condition of the airline when it needs to plan the schedules and destinations? You've got partners like EasyJet, VivaAerobus, with whom I think you are sharing data and exchanging information. So those are kind of, let's say, long term partners, something we could say, what's the feedback you're getting, because I guess this has some very serious implications for the way airlines do the fleet planning, particularly when we're talking 10 years time, which it's not so much in the aviation industry.
Those are all great points. So when we talk with airlines, what we're hearing is they're they're desperate for a true zero emissions option, both for climate reasons and for cost reasons. You know, industry associations are talking about shifting to net zero carbon emissions by 2050. So net zero, usually means things like synthetic aviation fuels and carbon offsets. But one of the things that people don't don't mention is the fact that, today, synthetic aviation fuels are three to five times more expensive than traditional fuels. And the reason that's important is because of the business model of a typical airline. So in a typical airline, 20 to 30% of their costs are fuel. And they tend to have profit margins, operating margins, below 10%. So 20% of your costs. Now those are at risk of increasing by a factor of four. That can completely eliminate your profit margin as an airline, which then means you have to start charging more money and that creates catastrophic effects. So airlines are desperately looking for a true zero emissions option. It's much less expensive than synthetic fuels. And both hydrogen and aluminum powered airplanes have the potential to meet dramatically less expensive, even coming close to cost parity with today's airplanes, or potentially even being cheaper in the future. So we see, you know, from an airline perspective, they won't be able to fly as long distance as they do with the 737. But number one, you might see new airlines that are sprouting up just to target the shorter flights. Or you might see the same airlines adopting new airplanes, because it allows them to dramatically lower their costs compared to synthetic aviation fuels, or even compared to the fees and taxes that might come on by using traditional jet fuel.
So operational costs, you expect them to be lower, even compared to conventional…?
Everything depends on the cost of fuel in the future, right? Is it going to be you know, we use gallons in the States? If it is $2 a gallon, it's going to be $5 a gallon. But then you have to think about landing fees and costs for things like offsets. I think one of the things that regulators do that's really important, is they're starting to essentially take the real costs of flying, and they're starting to put those into the tickets, which makes it more economically compelling to shift to true zero emissions technology.
Yeah, indeed, we can expect to see some changes here in the landscape in the coming years, I guess, as governments try to incentivize the transition, what about the OEMs, the Airbuses, the Boeings and Embraers? Are you talking with them? Why wouldn't they do this type of technology development themselves now that they are exploring different options to make their aircraft greener? What's the relationship with them?
Yeah, I mean, so look, within a company like Airbus or Boeing, there's always going to be, you know, 1000s or 10s of 1000s of people who are pushing for new technologies, such as zero emissions technology. But unfortunately, you know, this isn't their fault. It's the nature of a company that has existing technology to want to continue to make money off of their existing technology. So, you know, Boeing, they developed the 737 50 years ago, and they're still making a ton of money on this 737 and why would they want to change to something new that it's high risk? they would always sort of generally prefer to continue to make money on their existing airplanes, which is the same as you know. Airbus is the same as are the existing jet engine companies, all of that. So what our advantage here is that we don't have the legacy technology, we know that we have an advantage from an environmental point of view and from a, you know, from a cost perspective. But we're not burdened by the same legacy technology that these other companies are burdened by. That's what really gives us an opportunity. I can't talk about conversations we're having with the airplane manufacturers, but we know that publicly, everyone's looking at zero emissions technology. And, you know, that's something that we hope they do more of in the future,
Because are you planning to manufacture all this technology yourselves? Or you're going to operate through contractors doing the, let's say, the physical hands on work of making it? What's the plan? I guess, you need quite a lot of investment, right to turn this into a manufacturing operation?
Yeah, you know, I mentioned this earlier, but we've been fortunate in that, you know, we're operating a space where there's a very large potential commercial market, you know, there's expected to be $4 trillion worth of Boeing and Airbus 737 and A320 airplanes purchased over the next 20 years. And this is, you know, this is a seismic shift in the industry, it's a major, major shift in industry. So we've been fortunate that, you know, as we have needed to expand our funding in order to, you know, go from a design to a prototype, or go from a prototype to an airplane, we've been able to attract that funding. And that's also partially because we're working with partners. You know, for example, we announced last week that we're beginning this joint technical assessment phase with both Honeywell and Eagle pitcher. And each of these are, you know, these are large companies that are committed to building next generation technologies. And so, you know, it's not only us, it's also a number of other companies in the space that we get to work with.
When it comes to the airlines, I guess, obviously, you are talking with some of them. Can you tell us a bit more about your relationship with EasyJet? Which was, I think, the first sort of large partner that you presented, I think, early on a few years ago, and now you also have VivaAerobus of Mexico. This is another partner that you have. What's your relationship with those airlines?
Yeah. So you know, where we are right now, the most important thing that we need is setting requirements. So for example, what are the requirements in terms of range, in terms of payload, in terms of pilot needs? So I think that's the core of our relationship, it is essentially building the best possible product. And, you know, we're also working with other airlines as well, cargo operators and other things like that, in order to understand their requirements and put those into our airplane.
So you're working with others, you're talking with other airlines as well, not just these two?
Yeah, I just cannot say anything publicly right now.
Okay, fair enough. Um, what can we expect in the near future? I mean, you had these big announcements last week, when you were at COP 26. You were personally there. Is there any other next step you can announce publicly at this stage?
Nothing more we can announce there. But I would say as, you know, what's going to shift this industry is building the technology and proving it in the market. And so right now we're in technology development. And we need to test this, this megawatt class motor on the ground, and then we need to test it in the air. And what you'll see in the next year or so is more technology updates and announcements, as we reach new technology milestones.
Just one more thing before we wrap up, which is the larger the larger concept that you have in the works, is this going to be like a clean sheet aircraft designed from scratch, or is it going to be also a retrofit of an existing type?
You know, one of the benefits of the aerospace industry is there's so much existing technology out there. So for example, when you think of like Tesla, you know, they didn't have to redesign, for example, the tires. They're able to work with existing tires. And, you know, when we look at airplanes, even if it's a clean sheet airplane, we think that, you know, up to, let's say, let's say 50% of the plane is going to come from existing technology that's out there. Now. There is a lot of work that has to happen in terms of the propulsion system and things like that. But we're going to be able to benefit from, you know, airframes, composite structures, landing gear, avionics control systems. There's a lot that we're going to be able to stand on the shoulders of and benefit from. So that even though it's a clean sheet Aeroplan, there, it's building off of the existing industry.
So people that want to learn more about Wright Electric and the projects you're working on, what's the best way to find more information? I would say of course, the website. Are you on social media? Are you and other platforms as well where people can follow your progress?
I think the best way is to subscribe to our newsletter. So we have a couple 1000s people who, you know, we send specialized updates to, mostly engineering, but sometimes other announcements as well. And you can sign up on our website. And that's the best way to get the latest news.
By the way, the website is weflywright.com. I'm going to post it
Yeah, that's correct. And that's also where you can, we can find our white paper. And so thanks for linking to that
Indeed. Well, Jeff, thank you so much. It's been fascinating to learn about this very, very ambitious project. I wish you all the best because it's definitely very, very challenging, but I'm, you know, rooting for you guys to succeed, because that would be really, really a major, major step forward.
I really appreciate you scheduling this and inviting me onto the show. And I just want to say thank you so much.
You're welcome. And you're welcome to come on the show any other time whenever you want to share some news or some progress that you guys are making. So all the best, and thank you very much.
Absolutely. Hope you have a good day. See you!
Bye bye.