The Allplane Podcast #7 - Helicopters with Charlotte Pedersen
Helicopters is one area of the aviation industry that, I must admit, I know less about than I would like to. This is why I invited one of the professionals out there that knows most about them to speak on this episode of the podcast.
Charlotte Pedersen manages one of the top helicopter operators in the VIP segment. That is helicopters that cater to the rich and famous of the world. As a matter of fact, most of these helicopters may complement a private jet and a yacht as part of ultra high network individual’s mobility package.
Charlotte has also a long career in the helicopter world and, more generally, in aviation, both in the private sector, where she’s served at several companies and boards as well as in the public sector. In fact, she started with a stint at the Royal Danish Air Force flying the mighty Sea King and flying the Queen of Denmark on occasion!
With Charlotte we talked about the business of operating luxury helicopters all over the world, about new trends in rotor wing aircraft and, of course, about how Covid-19 has impacted the helicopter industry.
Download this episode on:
Apple Podcasts / iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts or Stitcher
Things we talk about in this episode
Charlotte’s career as a military Sea King pilot
Luxaviation and the world of VIP helicopters
Yacht-based helicopters
Trends and new concepts in rotor wing aircraft
How to charter a helicopter
The impact of Covid-19 in the helicopter industry
Resources
Starspeed, the Luxaviation’s subsidiary that we mention in the chat
My article on CNN about VIP helicopters
The Sea King helicopter that Charlotte used to fly
The AW609 tilt-rotor aircraft that we talk about
The large Sikorsky S-92 helicopter that she mentions
Podcast Music: Five Armies by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3762-five-armies
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Interview Transcript
(please note that, although we strive to make it as close as possible to the original recording, the transcript may not be 100% accurate)
Hello and welcome to the Allplane Podcast, where in every episode aviation professionals share insights about their area of expertise within the aviation industry.
But, before we start, just a quick reminder that you can find the whole podcast collection and plenty of other aviation stories on our website, Allplane.tv
On this podcast we talk about airplanes, and by airplanes I usually mean, fixed-winged aircraft
However, today, for a change, we are going to talk about helicopters
Because, helicopters are the speciality of our guest today
Charlotte Pedersen is the CEO of Luxaviation Helicopters, one of the major helicopter operators in the world serving to the VIP and VVIP segment
In fact, she has devoted her whole career to helicopters, both in the private and public sectors.
Prior to Luxaviation, Charlotte worked for the Civilian Aviation Authority of Luxembourg and, before that she also flew Sea Kings for the Royal Danish Air Force, where she even had the Queen of Denmark onboard as a passenger a number of times!
In this episode we talk about the business of providing helicopter rides for the rich and famous, about new trends in rotor wing aircraft and, of course, about how the current pandemic is also having an impact in the helicopter world…
So, without further ado, let me introduce our guest today…
-Hello Charlotte! how are you?
-Fine, thank you!...except the weather is not so good outside, I am in Luxembourg and it’s raining and it should be 25 degrees and sun
-yes, it's the same here ins barcelona, like winter, grey and rainy, not great helicopter weather...because today we are going to talk about helicopters...For all the time I spend reading about aviation, I must confess helicopters a a big unknown to me, although i have written a couple of pieces about it, but it's an area that I don't know nearly as much about as fixed winged aircraft and this is a great opportunity to learn more about it. But I think best is I first introduce you...You are a former military pilot...you were with the Danish military...since you are originally from Denmark
-Yes, that's true!
-And you used to fly one of those large Sea King military helicopters…
-Yes, nowadays most of them are found in museums unfortunately! Although not keen to admit it I am slowly approaching the age of dinosaurs, haha!
-Still some operational, though...
-The Sea King that I trained on initially 30 years back was a great workhorse. They simply continue to fly and, if you maintain them well, the countries they maintain them well still flying 40 years later
-And they fly in the sea that i guess is much more unforgiving environment you need to be really rough and tough...
-Yes, true, although the sea king is such a nice helicopter to fly, you hear the same from many of the pilots that flew them. Not that it didn't break down but easy to read I’d say, easy to say if there is something wrong...it was easy to analyze what was wrong with it...a safe machine!
-You even flew the queen Margaret of Denmark on occasion...
-Yes! We did! At the time i was in the military, at the 72 squadron we were doing search and rescue all over he Danish territory and also at night in neighbouring countries. We had such a great collaboration with our neighbouring countries for search and rescue capacity...And one of our favourites was that, whenever the Royal Household had to go somewhere that was off the normal airports of the country we supported the transportation needs of the Royal Family. That was something very special and the Queen was always extremely pleasant to fly with...she always came to the cockpit and said “hello!” and “goodbye!” and “thank you!” and little nice comments…
-Later you continued to work with helicopters and with a very VIP public, because you are now at Luxaviation, right? Which is a helicopter operator based in Luxembourg and it is possibly the largest or one of the largest helicopter operators in the world
-Yes and no...depends what segment you look at...Luxaviation Group is a global business aviation group operating business jets and helicopters, we also own and manage the FBOs and VIP terminals at the airports, when you come on a private flight. We are a global group comprising 15 aviation companies, we have 27 or 28 FBOs and a global workforce of approx 1500 employees. What we do...the VIP sector, we work with, High Net Worth Individuals (HNWI), companies, royal houses, we have many services in the luxury segment. Besides managing and operating the VIP aircraft and helicopters, we have also other services, wine services, amazing trips, client service trainings and many more niche services, all within the luxury sector. But for the helicopters we have our own organization where we take care of the high end helicopters, so the luxury of the helicopter segment where we fly private and commercial on behalf of the owners (of the helicopters).
-So when you say “of the owners” you mean you are taking care of the day to day maintenance and operation of the helicopter, but the helicopter may be owned by another person or a company...it is usually a company…
-Yes
-So you do all the day to day specialized work the helicopter requires and when this person needs the helicopter, you make it available for them to fly, right?
-Yes, exactly, so we do not own the assets, there is an owner behind, whether a private person, a company, a government, or a royal family, that owns the helicopter or jet and the due to very strict regulations and other things, there are requirements that these machines...now i talk about helicopters, but it is the same with jets...they are taken care of by an official helicopter company. So this is what we do. We take care of everything on behalf of the owner, from the very first step, when they come to us and they own a helicopter or express the wish to own a helicopter and they need our advice, so we go in an try to understand what the client wants to do, what the habits are, what the plans are, how large the family is...if its a private owner and then we come with our best advice about the type of helicopter to go for and then the owner can decide on either buy a pre-owned helicopter or buy a new one, but with both it requires that professional people come in and support it. So for pre-owned helicopters, we go and research the market for potential options that we believe is a good buy and then we go out and we check that technically is ok, this is the pre-buy inspection. And if things turn out to be ok, we then negotiate the price, we register the helicopter at the most convenient place for the owner, we then go out and search for flight crews, we train them, we have operational control of the helicopter and the pilots and the engineers. In some circumstances the engineers are ours, in others we use third parties, we check the organizations, that they have the right approvals in place and then we manage the operation...we make sure the helicopter is ready to fly whenever the owner wants to fly. We track all maintenance inputs and make sure everything according to manufacturer's recommendations are performed on the maintenance side and we keep the helicopter up to date. And then finally we help to sell the helicopter in case this is what the owner wants to do so.
-Do you own helicopters as well, that people can charter without owning them?
-No, we don’t own helicopters but a lot of our clients they don't use the helicopter every day so, if it's in their interest, we can make the helicopter available for charter when they don't need it themselves and with that they reduce the cost of owning the helicopter
-So, like AirBnB for helicopters, haha
-Yes, haha! I never thought about that, but you are right!
-And at an operational level how does this work? For example, in the case of pirate jets we had Adam Twidell of PrivateFly here on the podcast and we were talking about all the different ways that people can enjoy a private jet, but a jet has a range and mobility that a helicopter doesn't have. A helicopter is much more restricted geographically, so how do you manage all this geographical footprint? because you may have these ultra high net worth individuals that may need helicopters at different points at different times…Are they based at different places, like London, Zurich? or do you rotate these helicopters? for example in the summer, to Côte d’Azur, Cannes...How do you make the logistics of operating helicopters work?
-I have to say yes to everything you suggested! There is no full solution for this. You are absolutely right: helicopters do not fly as long distances as jets and, yes, owners want to use helicopters when they move around. We have different solutions for all this so, for example, if I take our own clients with managed helicopters, they give the helicopters to us to take care and manage, some of these owners use the helicopters in their region where they mainly live and then when they travel they just travel and leave the helicopter at home and we eventually charter it locally. For example, in the London area there is high demand for helicopter charters. Other helicopters are based on mega-yachts, we are probably the largest operator of helicopters on yachts
-They are based permanently on the yachts?
-They are based permanently in the yachts...for example we have a helicopter management company in the UK, which is called Starspeed, I have to mention that we have helicopter companies all over the world. We have a helicopter company in Mexico and also in South Africa to cover the local needs there but in Starspeed in the uk is a little bit different because this company has specialized in servicing helicopters that are permanently based at megayachts and since the owners of these mega-yachts travel around the world and take the yachts with them, these helicopters are automatically ready also at other locations. If the helicopter is not staying on the yacht during the transfer, for example, when crossing the Atlantic, we take care of the transportation of the helicopter using cargo planes or cargo ships
-So you are basically managing a naval aviation operation, haha!
-Yes! Also you need to know how to transport safely helicopters to the other side of the world, whether its a cargo ship or on the belly of a plane, what needs to be done when they arrive, have people ready who are certified to work in the helicopters, sometimes you need to take the blades off, etc, etc, so there are many minor things that require huge expertise, so with that in mind yes, our helicopters operator globally. However...when the helicopters don't move around and our clients need services where we don't have based helicopters...we have established, last year, a global partnership organization where we partner with the best local helicopter organizations in every region. These are not part of our group, but are companies that we have found, we have audited and that we have decided that we will partner with these companies because they operate to similar standards to our own. And for those companies, we offer them to our clients and also to the other clients, because we think they are unique and these are companies we would like to recommend. So, we connect customers and helicopter companies too.
-So , what would be the main centers of helicopter demand in Europe, are there specific cities that stand out when it comes to helicopter usage?
-It’s the same as where the people want to travel, people want to travel to big capitals and to holidays destinations. This is where you finds helicopter companies. So in Europe you have a lot of helicopter traffic in London you have it around Paris, in Southern France, Southern Spain, Italy, Greece...holiday destinations and also places where going from a to b takes a lot of time. For example anyone that has been to southern france, sitting in a traffic jam between Nice and Monaco in rush hour...they know why people take the shuttle! Haha!
-Yes I know of some cities, São Paulo, in Brazil is the typical example I guess is the same in all megacities, maybe Mexico, New York, where you have lots of wealthy people and traffic jams and big distances so people switch to helicopters if they can afford it. But in Europe I did not have this idea of there this could be. Well, obviously the megalopolis and then those playgrounds like the south of france. Do you do the corporate market as well, things like north sea offshore movements?
-No, we do not, this is a different niche within the helicopters world. In the helicopter world you have helicopters flying in the military and civilian helicopters. In the military you have tons of helicopters, I believe there are more military helicopters in the world than fixed wing military aircraft. But on the civilian side you have the civilian helicopter transport, the large helicopters flying to oil and gas rigs in the North Sea and other places of the world where you have oil and gas industry. Then you have the air traxi area, charter flights. Commercial air transport is considered when you have clients paying for the tickets. Another important thing to consider is that remember if you are paying for tickets whether is fixed wing or helicopter it has to be a commercial helicopter or fixed wing company that you are flying with, otherwise is a private flight and is a different regulation, a whole different story we can talk about
-What helicopter types are more popular with your segment, the luxury segment, specific brands or makes?
-Yes, you have the main western helicopters, Sikorsky, Bell, Leonardo...and then you have smaller manufacturers, which make smaller helicopters
-The helicopters that go on a yacht, in terms of size, are they smaller? Or those yachts are so large that it doesn't matter?
-Here when you cross over the area between maritime and aviation regulation, you need to be careful because you have two sets of very regulated areas. When you operate in a yacht you need to wonder whether you operate private or commercial. If you operate private you can operate pretty much any size of helicopters because it is your own deck, your own helicopter, but when it is commercial operations, we need to follow commercial standard, and the decks need to suit helicopter sizes. The less the deck suits the size of the helicopter, the higher the risk. If the deck is too small,you then have a safety issue. But are there preferred helicopter options...? What often happens is you have owners that own a yacht and also want a helicopter, they get to a point that the helicopter flight is so short that they think “do i really need a huge helicopter for that purpose?” the reality is, yes! it's a short flight, but if you don't make it is sad...so you should go for a helicopter that has all the safety features. I prefer 200% twin engine helicopters. I know there is a big argument in that, why do you need a twin engine helicopter if a single engine helicopter is safe? Yes they are (safe), but if a twin engine helicopter you have a dual hydraulic system a dual oil system, two of everything, and I always say would you ever go with your yacht to distant places with one oil system and one hydraulic system and most say “no never” so I say, don't do it with our helicopter, take one that can take you safely form a to b and if something goes wrong...it will still take you form a to b!
-Yes, adding redundancies
-Exactly
-And what is the typical mission profile? Move propel to and from airports? Taking people to yachts while it stays offshore? Just trying to figure out because it is obvious a very exclusive word that not many people have been able to see personally
-So just curious, what would be the main requirements
-Helicopters are the ultimate freedom, you can go wherever you want whenever you want, it can take off from a little spot, land in a little spot. You can fly whenever you want, of course depending on regulations and weather, But when you are at the point when you own a yacht you also want a helicopter for convenience. It is likely you own an airplane too because usually you can afford a plane before you can afford a megayacht...you possibly own a house...well, not just one house, but many in different locations...and you wake up and see the beautiful ocean and want to go sailing and you get to the point to get a yacht and finally when you get to the size of the yacht when you can fit a helicopter you want the easy transfer when you land direct to your yacht, to make life easier and more fun. Or when you arrive to a new destination and want to for a sightseeing tour and land next to a nice restaurant, you can bring guests safely and easily to the yacht, the alternative is to go in atender and it it is windy and you know how it can be being in a small boat...so that's why you get a helicopter...and also for the security and safety because you can also be flown if you have an issue, a medical issue if needed, for convenience
-And privacy I guess, because if you are a major celebrity or a royal, you can not just walk in the street like that...without being spotted
-Absolutely and this is also what the helicopters are amazing and not just for celebrities there are many places in the world where it's not safe to go in a car for long distance, you have that in Africa, in South America, even sometimes in the middle of Europe. Helicopters are safe if they are operated safely. If you look at safety statistics in Europe and compare helicopters with commercial airlines,a tally helicopters have a better safety record. Actually operating commercially, to commercial standards, makes a difference in the helicopters world.
-How many people fit in a helicopter like the one you fly to the yachts, for example?
-That all depends on the size of the helicopters and seats, so a typical configuration is maybe six seats in the back or with a pilot at the front and a passenger next to him, this is also possible.
-And the interior? how it would look like? obviously you don't have the same amount of space as in a private jet, but i guess they are as luxurious as they can be for this environment.
-Yes earlier I mentioned how you have different types of helicopters, the military and the civilian and on the civilian side you have the big helicopters that go to oil rigs. They are fitted with corporate seating, meaning the seats are more or less like in a bus, and you need a headset because there is less padding and the noise cabin is higher in the cabin. Then you have the whole medical helicopter world where the back is all for ambulance use, with all the equipment that you use for medical purposes. In some parts of the word, specially in Australia, companies that do medical transport, have extra seats, so they can switch from being a medical helicopter provider to being able to offer charter services, they can put seats and carpet on the floor and have a corporate helicopter then. In other parts of the world it is not as common, but in Australia, specifically, it is because distances are so large that you end up transporting medical, people, and doing utility work. And finally I must say you have expeditionary helicopters that fly with scientists to the Arctic and Antarctica. We do VIP so most of our helicopters look like a limousine or the back of a business jet and the padding is so much thicker, so in most of our helicopters you don't need to wear a headset, it is very padded and you feel like in your living room.
-So is this a differential factor when you market your helicopters to an ultrahigh net worth clientele? the level of noise?
-It’s the level of noise, it's also some of the types that are used, we call them VVIP (very VIP!) here we chose the helicopters with the least vibration and most comfortable profile. Some helicopters land with with very high nose, some other land very level. It depends what clients prefer. If they prefer the sports car type, then it's the sports car type, but if they prefer the comfortable one, the smoother ones, then we would advise a different type of helicopter.
-Interesting, I was not aware of that, different helicopters had different ways of landing and moving around...
-Yes!
-Very interesting
-It has to do with aerodynamics, Every helicopter has its specifics, it's difficult to say which one is the nicest!
-Ok, so like cars...within the very luxury cars market, a Ferrari and a Rolls Royce...completely different approach
-Exactly, one may be more fun to fly than the other, the other may be more comfortable to seat at the back than the other...one of the helicopters we have is a large S-92 that is the same type that you normally use for oil and gas to fly offshore, but we have it with leather seats, even a bathroom, each one can take 16-17 passengers…
-Quite a large helicopter!...And what about these designs coming up soon. There is an Italian company designing a tilt rotor, the same conpet the US Marines use to move troops around. It can take off like a helicopter then the rotor transitions to the horizontal position like a plane and then to vertical again, to land as a helicopter. Until now only the US military uses it, but there are projects for the civilian market as well. How do you see this new concept? Coming up soon? And is it interesting for the type of people you work with?
-How do I see it...I love new technologies and new ideas and I like when thinking out of the box and coming up with things that no one thought about...I think this one is truly inspiring
-Well, it gives you more speed and still lets you land...although not sure how much space it requires to land, but I checked it and it looks pretty interesting. I see it being adopted or people that need privacy and speed
-I think this is an interesting development, still must say it's an area that is difficult to develop something new in...even since the time osf Sikorsky, when he developed the modern helicopter,many things have been tried and the only thing that really works well so far is...the helicopter! An we can see it with all the new UAMS...
-Yes, actually wanted to ask you about this: how are you seeing in the industry all the new projects coming up, volocopter, uber, etc all have characteristics similar to helicopters, I guess will impact how people move
-I think the development is really really interesting, I wish they could find a new type of machine with the capacities of a helicopter, but without the noise and the cost. The only thing I must say is that I look at the drawings from other types of helicopters, in the 1940s 1950s they were already thinking these concepts...of course today is different with the electronics, the way you can fly them from the ground with computer, but the concepts are similar, four rotors in the top instead of one..etc I don't think ancient has come up with a winner, these concepts,although but fantastic, they are huge, is this one step fwd and three backwards, or what? You need space for them, a bit the same with tilt rotor . I would like to be the first operator of tilt-rotors and the first operator of drones, but I still need to see the concept, because when you mix aerodynamics of helicopter and fixed wind and new types o drotor, it's not easy. When people started to say, we’ll have this within 5yrs i started to think , “probably...I wasn’t convivence, although still sure that we will have passenger drones, the whole concept, who will operate this, is a bit more complex. You have the airspace, etc. even if machines can be controlled by computer, there are still human factors involved, there can be mistakes if you don't have the experienced operators who have experience with human factors and safety management, if they don't get involved, you may even see some accidents.
-Yes, we’ll see, i think there are still some way off..some say within 3 to 5 years...will see
-Charlotte a question for you: how to book a helicopter, just come to your website and tell you guys where you want to fly to and when and you arrange it?
-Of course! Haha! You can go to luxaviation.com and send us a request and will guide you then, with the best options in your area, or if you have helicopters in that area, we can propose one of ours. If not available we'll use our helicopter partner network, we have partners in North America, South America, Europe, Asia.
-So the process is the following: I go to luxaviation website (i can use phone or email of course too), where there is a form. I enter from where to where I want to go, there are one leg, and multi city options, just like a normal airline! And I can choose type of helicopter, number of passengers, I then send it and then you work the quote
-Yes, it gets to our offices and well get back to you. If we have a preferred operator in the areas where you want to fly we’ll guide you directly to that operator, because this is the easiest, because of all the small corrections you may need to do, if the weather changes or you are a larger group than expected... If it's in a region where we don't really have anyone to forward you to, we can look for an operator for you. We actually managed to find the only twin engine modern helicopter in Mongolia! with all the right authorisation, etc. and we gave the details to the client, so we have the ways to find the helicopters.
-You know Mongolia is a place i really want to go, so I will keep it in mind haha! I will add a link to the show’s notes so that anyone that wants to book a helicopter can find it easily...
-Yes, and we’ll provide the best option in our network!
-So, just to wrap it up, have you been much affected by this pandemic thing?
-Every transportation company in the world has been affected, yes. It is a crisis in the transport and tourism sector that has never been seen till now. I think in the business aviation sector we have been very fast to react because we are used to work with an unplanned scheduled. It’s our goal as an organization to be fully prepared for the unknown, to be extremely fast in reacting, but we also realized it is so serious, that we need to work together in the sector, including our competitors. In the helicopter sector in general, yes, we have been hit, not in the same way as the airlines, also because helicopters have a big part doing medical missions, this is still flying, but also since the thing is when people are not allowed to drive there are luckily less accidents but helicopter companies have less requests to fly. So, in a way even if less hit than airlines, there are too some difficulties.
-Well I guess many people rushed to their yachts to self isolate in the sea!
-True, one of the niche areas that are less affected, but on the other hand since we are every involved with the yachting industry...it is suffering now
-Of course and there are many high profile events, such as film festivals and big industry conventions that have been cancelled...
-Lots of things not going on, looks at different parts of the world. New York for example. Our partners are very restricted, theory is allowed to move. Our partners in Spain, Helity, also were affected, but they switched to medical flights, doing a lot of efforts to support hospitals, same for other partners in other regions of the world. They have other missions to do but it is tough!
-Many helicopter companies are not very large and they own the helicopters and have pilots hired and when there is no revenue, what do you do? It is a sad situation
-Hopefully things are improving, some regions opening...will see...
-I think so too, I think politicians should react and open up the industry, because otherwise the economy will be more harder hit than they realize and nothing prevents airlines and helicopter companies to operate safely, with masks, sanitiser,etc, so that transport form a to b is done in same manner as on the ground, where you observe certain rules, like not shaking hands, etc, In fact here is less intervention, because we have the ventilation systems onboard with fresh air, its fully safe
-So you have the same system as in planes to renew the air?
-Same way, in helicopters it is easier,because we sometimes fly at speed when you can open windows, nothing prevents a safe and secure flight!
-Let's hope so!
-We can leave it here, we can revisit helicopters sometime in the future.It been a pleasure and hopefully see you again soon!
-Thank you very much!